Talk:Cult television

Also noted: there are a lot of kids shows on here, like Camp Lazlo and The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Since when are they cult? Things like Ren and Stimpy are, but cartoons like that? If someone has a good counter argument feel free to give it. I consider Yu-Gi-Oh! to also be part of this list, since it's very popular among young kids. I think really the only cult TV that CN currently shows is Futurama, the Oblongs (and other shows like that) and anime (and maybe Family Guy, but I think that's kind of too mainstream). Samurai Drifter 03:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Which Batman series is this article referring to? Both the 1970s live action show and the animated Batman: The Animated Series could fall under this category. Some form of explaination of which one it is should be given. -- LGagnon

I've linked it to Batman (1960s TV series), since it's undeniably a cult TV series and presumably if whoever-it-was had meant B:TAS they would have said so. If anyone wants to link to B:TAS as well, feel free. --Paul A 01:26, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Buffy, The Simpsons, cult? Give me a break. Widely popular series (in their time or now) need to be culled from the list, no matter how obsessive their hardcore fans may be. You can call them classics, if you like, but not cult. --Goblin 12:44, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)

As I see it , the Simpsons sort of started out mainstream, but once the novelty of a prime time animated series (unusual at the time) wore off, it was kept alive by a ferroucious cult following. Finally, the show when very mainstream again, with mainstream audiences finally catching on (even as the show's quality declined). So I guess I would say that the Simpsons has had cult TV status, but not now. ike9898 14:04, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)

Buffy is cult, and there are really no two ways about it. A show that builds a positively obsessive fanbase while being largely ignored by the mainstream (which it was; see the Emmys)? Some might argue that as a pretty good definition of a cult show. A show's culthood isn't merely defined by how popular it is with the obsessive hardcore, but also how unpopular or ignored it is by the rest. Buffy was never "widely popular"; certainly not in the way that other shows you feel should be called "classics" were widely popular.

With you all the way on the Simpsons, though. Kinitawowi 14:09, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

The Simpsons is not cult. It airs in primetime, and is on its 11th season. Samurai Drifter 17:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I was about to strongly disagree with this. But looking over the definition, I have to agree that the Simpsons are too popular *now* to be a cult. However, I would suggest once it goes off the air that it return to cult status, much like Bonanza which was also hugely popular and seemingly endless in its day. Do you agree? --Happylobster 17:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I also agree that The Simpons has moved out of cult into the mainstream. Howie ☎ 21:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

=Awards?

(re: the Emmy comment above) If we're going to apply awards as the criterion of 'non-cultishness', then:

1) That'll open a whole can of worms as to what constitutes a "legitimate" award, for this purpose (There are award-winning shows in Japan, Canada, Australia, the UK, etc, that would be 'cult' in the US, and vice versa.)

and

2) Then please don't reverse the deletion of the following items, all verified Emmy winners:

Get Smart (Best Comedy, 1968-9) Arrested Development (Best Comedy, 2003-4) Northern Exposure (Best Drama, 1991-2) Seinfeld (Best Comedy, 1991-2) Lost (Best Drama, 2004-5)

While I would take issue with the description of being a 'cult show fan' as being akin to low-grade mental illness or religious mania, that's just my personal opinion. The above deletions are based on facts. -Smoot.

I disagree with the removal of Get Smart. The above text about Buffy/Emmy awards was just one suggestion of how a show could be measured as cult - not the one and only definition. Get Smart is going back in. The others (I've not heard of Arrested Development or Northern Exposure - so some may disagree) probably don't count as cult anyway though. Howie ☎ 10:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If the Emmy doesn't do it, then the 30+ years of consistent syndication, several sequels/spinoffs and a theatrical movie, and an upcoming release in the form of DVD boxed sets should. This isn't even a show I'm all that interested in, but it's not in the same class, as say, The Prisoner (Less than 15 episodes, considered 'cult' in its country of origin, even at the time of release.) 4.156.69.173 16:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)Smoot

But The Avengers ran for ten years, was wildly popular, had a spin-off series and theatrical movie, plus several DVD releases, is currently/recently been repeated on BBC 4 and BBC America, and is still considered cult. You are judging what is and isn't cult on the recognition it's had by the industry it was created in (awards, spin-off series and movies, DVD releases etc.) and not on the way it's perceived by it's own audience. The audience make it cult - the media don't care if it's cult or not if they see money in a theatrical film/DVD release/merchandising etc. The audience and fans make a show cult. Not awards and DVD releases. Howie ☎ 00:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Foreign shows yo

Can I add cult shows that never aired on USA or UK?

I don't see why not. It would be nice to have things a bit less Amer- / Anglocentric. I'd just make sure the articles for those shows explained why they should be labeled as cult. --Tydaj 02:28, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Anime as cult?

I'm not sure if I agree with the amount of anime on this list. While the likes of Cowboy Bebop, Sailor Moon and Neon Genesis Evangelion undeniably developed a cult following, I'm pretty sure that anime exists as a distinct subculture from what would generally be considered to be cult television. Feel free to shout me down on this... but I remain unsure. Kinitawowi 15:00, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

I'll downshout you if you like. What definition of "cult" are you using? Small group of people (in the West) really like them, most people don't know they exist or dislike them - they look like cult to me matturn 04:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that ALL anime (with I guess the exceptions of things like Pokemon) is cult. You could list every anime series here. It's overwhelming the list. Thus I'm going to go out on a limb and remove series that don't have a cult following outside the general anime following. Samurai Drifter 21:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Why stub?

Why is this page listed as a stub?

I agree it is not a stub and have removed the stub tag. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 19:52, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Should the following shows be delisted?

• Alias
• Family Guy
• Knight Rider
• M*A*S*H
• MacGyver
• Star Trek

All I feel are too mainstream to be listed as "cult." Some I feel more strongly about this than others; for example M*A*S*H is one of the most popular series of all time, and should by no means be listed here, but perhaps cases could be made for some of the others. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 19:59, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Family Guy is probably more cult due to the fact it was canceled. Mike H 03:28, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

I agree on Family Guy. It wasn't popular enough to stay on Fox for more than three seasons, but viewership on Adult Swim did reinvigorate it. A similar phenomenon may be true of Star Trek, but I wasn't around when it first aired and I'm not an expert on the subject. If it was always as well known as it is now, I'd say not. I was under the impression MASH was always quite popular. --Tydaj 03:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have removed all of the above save Family Guy. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 15:27, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

I saw in an article in my newspaper that the original series of Star Trek lasted only 3 years, to my surprise. Evidently the stong fanbase got the movies to be made. Perhaps it should be reconsidered? --Tydaj 02:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Star Trek wasn't very popular when it first appeared. It took years of syndication, books, conventions and fan chatter before the movies were made, and then more TV series'. It's probably the most popular cult program ever made. matturn 04:08, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Countdown?

Would Countdown with Keith Olbermann qualify as cult? I have heard it described before as having a strong cult following. it may be a news show, but...

Category?

The way this article is looking, would it perhaps be better served as a category from which each of these shows can be linked into? CaptainSpam actually remembered to sign it this time 01:49, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

This is cult TV, not obscure TV

User:TMC1982 has added several new shows to the list. While some of those may count, I don't think all of them do. Could we make the distinction between "cult" and "obscure" and remove some of those shows? -- LGagnon 16:16, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

Religion?

Much of the edits made by User:Matturn seem questionable to me. For one, he makes the article's subject sound like an actual cult. Second of all, the line "Outside of modern Western society, such devotion to fantasy worlds usually takes the form of a literal cult or religion, hence the term" seems to be a rather dubious line which I think he should show proof for. Both his edits and those of User:TMC1982 seem to be ruining the credibility of this article. -- LGagnon 04:14, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

What is cult television if not television somehow related to cults? Other writers here have disagreed strongly over the meaning of the term, in particular trying to separate what is cult from what is merely obscure. I believe my understanding of the term is close to it's original use, and can be more clearly defined than the rough - "I like cult TV, I like these programs and most other people don't, therefore they're cult" idea that seemed to be dominant previously. If you have another definition that has some link to cults, and so justifying the use of the term, please present it. matturn 05:22, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I also disagree that my comments were "exaggerated pseudo-religious speech". They related to the common psycological underpinnings of both parts of religion and some aspects of liking of this sort of material. That's why the stuff on autistic spectrum - which includes what's commonly known as "geeky". A study a few years ago found that over 90% of Engineering students had some "symptoms" of autistic spectrum. It's a way of thinking, not a disorder unless it causes the individual problems. I think these are views that are worth mentioning, although they should of course be attributed to others because they're not common belief. matturn 05:39, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I have never heard of TV spawning religions. I have never seen cult TV following being on level with real cults or religions. I'm sure that other editors would agree. Yes, you are exaggerating it, and you are damaging the article's factual accuracy. You are merely forcing your POV on to the article because you think it is better, despite having shown no proof for it. -- LGagnon 06:04, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Please show me where I claim TV spawned a religion. I never claimed that. As for cult TV rivaling real religions and cults, the best example I can think of is when "Jedi" was found to be one of the most popular religions in a UK census a few years ago. And the most popular "other world" stories are now from popular media thought of as fiction rather than fact. And amungst westerners, more pilgramages are to famous film and TV sites rather than famous miracle sites. And costly small statuettes representing "other worldly" beings (known as idols in some quarters) are now prodominantly of TV characters (a point made well in an episode of "Buffy"). I'd wager that more people's morality and worldview are influenced by "The Simpsons" than all but the biggest dozen or so spiritual systems.

I have heard Christians teach that any person or character of focus is an idol, and are only permissable when their ways are in line with God's (can't serve two masters and all that). Some have taught against posters of rock stars in teenagers' bedrooms on this basis. The Saducee Jews in Jesus' day believed that having Ceasars' head on a coin was a form of idolatry. Islam goes so far as to outlaw all art that tries to compete with what God has made (which is why mosques have so many geometric designs). Believers in such ideas would certainly see cult TV as competition.

As I pointed out earlier, I was merely showing parallels between both cults and cult TV. Yes, it should be rewritten to be more NPOV, including adding references. But the main reason I thought it needed to be there in the first place was to explain what the term means. Have you proposed an alternative as I asked? Please tell me how something got to be called "cult TV" when it has absolutely nothing to do with cults. matturn 13:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there are similarities, but that gives no reason to describe cult TV as if it were a cult. Most (if not all) cult TV fans are not cultists; they are just enthusiastic fans. Using terms like that makes the article look like it is saying TV spawned a religion. And the line mentioned in the first post I made in this section makes it sound even more like you are saying that. Comparisons make sense, but using misleading terminology doesn't. -- LGagnon 14:07, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

OK. I admit my use of terminology could be seen as stretching definitions too far. I tend to use religious terms to describe secular things more than most - although such usuage is not uncommon in marketing circles. I'll rewrite things on the weekend. matturn 12:31, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removal of items in the list because they have no Wikipedia article - Ridiculous!

It disgusts me that someone would actually remove items in this list just because there is no Wikipedia article about them YET. The point of Wikipedia is so that people can contribute to articles - to help create them, to add to stubs etc. Just because a TV show listed on this page has no Wikipedia article, it doesn't make it any less of a cult show. Anyone wishing to research the cult following of ITC productions, for example, would have an incomplete list if the person who removed Department S from the list had their way. I've reverted the article to the version before 80.178.178.120's edit, and included the one show they contributed to the list. HowardBerry 21:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Dispute of removal of content

Regarding User:Sanhedrin's constant removal of half of the list of shows, and re-writing of what Cult TV is actually is, this discussion aims to resolve the issue. Personally I consider The A Team, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Star Trek, The X Files and all the other shows she/he keeps removing to be cult shows. The BBC seems to agree with me too (The A Team are mentioned on this cult page: [1]), Buffy is listed as being Cult on the BBC site too [2]. The X Files is also listed as cult: [www.bbc.co.uk/cult/xfiles/], as does it count Star Trek as cult [www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/]..... etc. etc.

Until agreed reasons can be stated for the removal of the content, then I would request that the page not be edited in such a way. Please post your opinions below. HowardBerry 17:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with HowardBerry - I consider many of these shows to be "cult" (in the UK, most have been shown on minority channels and therefore cannot lay claim to any great popularity, but have a very loyal fanbase). Most, if not all, of these shows have also been covered in UK magazines such as Dreamwatch and Cult Times too. If there's an element of the show which appeals to a hardcore fanbase which keeps the show "alive" after its death (via merchandising etc.) then this is, in my opinion, another indication of "cult" status. Stephenb (Talk) 17:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Since both of you are from GB, maybe you should create a page for cult shows in your television market. Any show outside of its original broadcast market could be considered “cult“ based solely on eyeballs, market availability, etc. So separate entries should be created for shows with a cult following outside their original market while this page will continue to list shows with cult following in their original market. The added benefit of this is that it provides extra information about the shows.

The shows you list as examples have all been successful in their original markets. All but the A Team were popular enough to warrant spin-offs. Sanhedrin 18:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Sanhedrin, I am not aware that Wikipedia is solely for U.S. citizens. These shows may not be cult in the U.S. but are considered so elsewhere; hence, they deserve to be on the list. If the article was restricted to only those shows considered cult in the U.S., this would make the article factually inaccurate. Fortunately, the article applies to shows that may be considered cult period. As to "while this page will continue to list shows with cult following in their original market" - why should it? Stephenb (Talk) 18:46, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

A show being successful doesn't make it ineligible to be classified as cult. Star Trek is HUGELY popular, but it is most cetainly a cult show; some fans go through their normal lives dressed in Starfleet uniforms for goodness sake!! If you continue to remove the content on the page, this shall be presented to the disputes page. HowardBerry 18:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

You are exactly right. This is not just for the US. Hence the changes, to distinguish that which is cult in the original market to that which is cult outside of its original market. Without such distinctions, the page is open to any show ever made anywhere. “Friends” is a cult show in Holland, “Seinfeld” is a cult show in Mozambique, “The Office (UK)” is a cult show in one neighborhood or with these 5 friends, etc. An all-inclusive list does nothing.

As an American, I am only qualified to remove shows from this market which are not cult in this market. There are several UK shows on the list which need attention. Sanhedrin 19:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I utterly disagree. This page is about all shows which are considered cult. You are exaggerating this issue entirely. You removed Star Trek from the list, as you refuse to believe it is a cult show. As some of the previous discussions on this page already state - Star Trek should be on this page. You are not answering why you removed the shows you did - you are just saying that you feel you are right and that we are wrong, without actually backing up your opinions (except for with your overexaggerated nonsense about something being cult in "one neighbourhood" etc.). This page is not about the American market - it's about ALL markets. This is not a listing of Cult television in America, it's a listing of all cult television; so you should not edit out shows which are considered to be cult in markets foreign from the US. HowardBerry 20:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

That's exactly what I've said. Right now the page is biased towards a few localities and groups of people (genre fans, frankly). It should not be a listing of cult television in America. It should not be an Americentric list. It should also include shows from other markets. Why you insist on restricting the list to Americentrism is beyond me. Sanhedrin 04:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sanhedrin, you are the one trying to restrict the list! It is also not a list of Cult television only considered cult in the US, which would be Americentrism. The page is currently not biased and does include shows from other markets - I have no problem with shows considered cult in France appearing on the list (indeed, I believe Buffy is) whether they are French or not. I also have no problem with a show like Absolutely Fabulous being on the list which is (I understand) a cult show in the US but probably isn't considered such here (it's a pretty mainstream sitcom). This list has obviously been built up by a number of users; Wikipedia works on consensus but you are the only person so far arguing to remove such shows as "Star Trek". If there was a consensus arguing for your opinion, I wouldn't have any problem with your edits, but at the moment you're just imposing your own opinion on the article. Stephenb (Talk) 11:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

"Why you insist on restricting the list to Americentrism is beyond me." I'm doing nothing of the sort!!! I'm keep the list open to all countries. You are the one who is trying to make it country specific. HowardBerry 12:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

You are restricting the page. And refusing to listen. You claim to be against Americentrism, and yet you are only championing American shows. Where are the cult shows from your market? Why are you so dead set in restricting the list to only American shows? It’s important to realize that we’re dealing with a binary here. A show can’t be cult and non-cult at the same time. Labeling a show with the particulars means that we can do just that.Sanhedrin 05:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense. I am only "championing" American shows because those are the ones you decided to delete entirely from the page. The other shows are not the ones at risk from deletion at the moment. You want to know where the shows are from my market? Look through the page history - I've added about 20 shows from the UK. You took this issue into mediation... perhaps you should actually follow that process instead from now on? After all, the process can not continue until you actually proceed with what has been requested of you. HowardBerry 09:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

Glad to see that some shows that don't belong have been removed. I totally missed Friends being on there, or else I would have removed that one(!); but some of the others I'd not heard of. Howie ☎ 20:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Old Nickelodeon Shows?

There are a few other shows that appeared on Nickelodeon that might qualify as cult shows, like Kenan & Kel, Space Cases, and The Secret World of Alex Mack, all three of which were very popular at one time or another but inevitably were cancelled as Nickelodeon began making more air time for shows that appeal to more mainstream audiences. Space Cases still seems to be fairly popular, at least, with the episodes hitting the internet, I've noticed an increase in the interest of it. JBladen 15:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Very popular shows listed here

There are some shows on this page that were really popular and had good ratings, like Doctor Who (massively popular in the 70s, massively popular now) and Knightmare (was one of the most popular shows on CITV and got over five million viewers, which is incredible for a kids show). Should they really be on the list? Probably a lot more too. BillyH 03:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The two shows you have mentioned are prime examples of what a cult show is. Doctor Who has a massive cult following - the fans attend conventions, dress up, write fanfiction etc. They are what kept the show alive during the years it was off the air; and their dedication to keeping it alive is what made the new series so successful. Knightmare is also a huge cult hit - the fans have a huge petition to bring it back, they talk about it and speculate about new series, and also talk about the past series, share videos, and discuss how to solve the puzzles. For a show that's been dead for over ten years, I'd say that's pretty impressive that it's still been kept alive in the minds of the fans.

As I constantly say, a show doesn't have to be unpopular for it to be considered cult. A lot of cult hits have a lot of fanaticism surrounding them - just look at shows like The Prisoner which is undeniably a cult hit. Hugely popular at the time, hugely popular now (so much so there is to be a new series); and yet there has been constant fan speculation as to what it was all about for the past forty years, conventions, fan fiction etc. etc. Howie ☎ 11:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, good point. There are a few discussions on this page about popular shows that the editor didn't think should be listed here, so I mistakingly assumed that not popular = cult. BillyH

as knowledgable as you guys are in this subject, unless you can provide a publication refering to a show as cult tv, i don't think we should be judging which shows are in the list.

What about reality shows that become a cult hit?

Is there any reality tv shows that are becoming a cult hit? I'd see only 3 reality shows on this article that made into a cult tv like Takeshi's Castle, Jackass and Iron Chef. What about the others like The Osbornes, Real World, Survivor, Fear Factor and The Amazing Race?

Charmed?

Would someone explain to me why Charmed is considered a cult show? Its not an obscure show, it was aimed at a mainstream audience, it doesn't have a coherent mythology, it was produced by Aaron Spelling, it doesn't fall in the category of "it's so bad its cult", it didn't get support from critics, either mainstream or underground, and it doesn't have some sort of coherent ideology or philosophy.--Gonzalo84 18:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Anime cult?

I can understand some of the anime here being cult, as .hack//sign had 2 runs through its one season and then completely stoped showing, but Inuyasha? How in gods name is that cult? Isn't every 14 year old who stays up past 11 a fan of it? That really isn't cult, and then Viva la bam? Mainstream punk isn't cult TV last time I looked. Grim adventures of Billy and Mandy is still a popular CN show, not in the least cult. Dragonball Z? An extremely popular childrens show? cult? no. I'm being a little blunt here, but not every show that didn't hit mainstream audiences is cult television, it's just unpopular, there's a difference. Higatron 16:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Higatron (talk • contribs) 16:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

Firefly?

No love for Joss Whedon's incredible TV show "Firefly"? If that isn't a cult show then I don't know what is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Urlacher rules (talk • contribs) 17:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC).