Talk:Blue Division

Division 250

This was at "Division 250":

Division 250 or also called the Blue Division, was a "Volunteer" spanish military unit that fought for Germany in World War two, mostly in the Russian front. Known as the blue division for the use of blue falangist uniforms.

Why should this division article not be titled like the other Wehrmacht divisions with its number? After all, other divisions in Wehrmacht had unofficial names, but none are listed as such.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 23:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:NC(CN). Person who is searching information on division is most likely going to use term "Blue division" not "250th Infantry division (German)".--Staberinde (talk) 10:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Also

Also the name of a spanish nationalist Oi! rock music band from Valencia.

--Error 02:12, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Influence of the Blue Division in later Spanish Army history

This whole section seems pretty much opinion-only, it probably should be rewritten or removed entirely by someone with more knowledge.

Also, any sources to the statement that Luis Garcia Berlanga went to the Blue Division "in order to help their relatives in Franco's prisons"? Other than himself saying this in interviews, of course. Looks suspiciously like revisionism. Jope 14:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Other prominent today person that were erased (of list don't think badly) by obvious reasons. oTHER ARTICLE WITH ONLY FOREIGN VOLUNTEER DIVISIONS???¿ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.155.45.166 (talk) 20:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Portuguese volunteers in the Blue Division?

I heard that a band of Portuguese volunteers, several hundreds strong, served in the Blue Division under the name "Green Legion". Any information on it and should it be included in the article as well?123.123.202.233 (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Explanation

Hello, onebody could to explain me why the country of the Blue Division is "Spain", and "Nazi Germany" is the alliegerance? Thanks.--Capitán Simio (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Favor de leer este mismo articulo en la Wikipedia España a:   ES.WIKIPEDIA.ORG/WIKI/DIVISIÓN_AZUL    K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 19:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Should not be, it should be considered a german unit, spain was "neutral" during the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elloza (talk • contribs) 21:26, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

German medals on religious statues

It may be too lateral for the article but some Iron Crosses were donated by Division veterans to their favourite images of Mary. --Error (talk) 17:32, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Blue Squadron

There should be a separate article on the Blue Squadron. (2A00:23C7:CF07:C300:E929:7180:CED2:FE61 (talk) 10:22, 2 August 2019 (UTC))

Foreigners in the Blue Division

If you pick any book on the topic "Blue Division" you will not find much on non Spanish volunteers. Pick for example the book "La Division Azul" by Carlos Caballero Jurado which was considered by historian Stanley G. Payne as the definitive work on the topic. In more than 600 pages the book hardly talks about foreign volunteers. What this book says is that some Portuguese Fascists connected with Francisco Rolão Preto (the leader of the Portuguese Fascist movement that was imprisoned and exiled by Salazar) tried to connect the Portuguese Legion with the Blue Division, to fight against communism, but that Salazar did not allow it. The also book briefly talks about a few foreigners from a few nationalities (e.g. one Estonian).

Now according to some minor sources (a blog, a doctoral thesis, and a paper presented at a congress) it looks like there were between 150 and 200 Portuguese volunteers that fought in the Blue Division. According to these same minor sources most of these Portuguese volunteers had been living in Spain for a long time and had developed roots in Spain. The same way the sources also say that there were also volunteers from many other countries such as Russia, France etc. and that these volunteers had also developed roots in Spain and most of them had acquired Spanish Citizenship. In my opinion neither the topic nor the sources are relevant enough to be part of a serious enciclopedia article. However if the article is going to mention foreigners it will have to mention all of them, including those that later in their lives have acquired Spanish Citizenship, because that is exactly what the source say ( See the source: Extranjeos en La Division Azul". And, as to the Portuguese, if they are going to be mentioned it will have to be said what Carlos Caballero did say, that they were not backed up by Salazar.--J Pratas (talk) 22:32, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

May 2020 edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "unreliably sourced and / or undue". --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:44, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Non-Germans in the Wehrmacht?

I have read elsewhere that non-Germans could not join the German Armed Forces (any branch)

This is why there were so many different nationalities in the SS. They would have joined the Heer, but were not allowed to, so the SS was their only option.

So how did Spanish citizens join the Heer?

95.145.107.230 (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Withdrawal

The Blue Division was not fully withdrawn from the Eastern Front until 21 March 1944. Franco did not return to full neutrality until August 1944 when the Germans withdrew from the Spanish frontier. (Westerhaley (talk) 17:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC))

Do you have any WP:RS to support your claim that the Blue Division, rather than Spanish volunteers generally, continued to exist in any legal form after October 1943? —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

It was not fully disbanded until 1944. Franco continued to believe the Axis could win after the German victory in the Dodecanese campaign in November 1943. (Westerhaley (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2021 (UTC))

Again, do you have a WP:RS to support your contention? —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Every biography of Franco that I have read mentions the Blue Division was not fully withdrawn until March 1944. (Westerhaley (talk) 10:46, 29 April 2021 (UTC))

Please cite some evidence here before making these edits. Brown's Spain During World War II, for example, states at p 53 "In the late summer of 1943, Spain began asking for the withdrawal of the Blue Division, to which the Germans finally agreed in October. On October 1, Franco announced a shift from nonbelligerency to neutrality and a few weeks later the Blue Division withdrew from the Eastern Front." I do not doubt that some Spaniards who had previously served in the Division stayed in German-occupied Europe before entering other Spanish formations, but, barring actual evidence to the contrary, it's simply wrong to state that the Blue Division was not withdrawn.—Brigade Piron (talk) 15:17, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

It was withdrawn on 21 March 1944. The pressure was mainly from the United States. Spain did not return to neutrality until August 1944: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/94297/1/2000-08.pdf (Westerhaley (talk) 11:58, 2 May 2021 (UTC))

I quote from p 46 of your own source (!) which states, for 2 August 1943, that "Spain withdraws the Blue Division from the Eastern Front, although an element, the Blue Legion, remains behind." Your other two remarks also directly contradict the extract from the WP:RS I quoted above. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:59, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Franco was under intense pressure from the United States, which had even imposed an oil embargo. The source I used does not mention the 121st Infantry Division. It is misleading to say the Blue Division returned in 1943, or that the pressure was only from Spain. In any case Franco continued to believe the Axis would win after the Dodecanese campaign of September-November 1943, and Spain continued to trade wolfram with Nazi Germany until August 1944. (Westerhaley (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2021 (UTC))

I think you are missing the issue here. You have yet to provide a single piece of evidence to support your convention that the Blue Division was not "withdrawn" in October 1943. Also, the fact that the US may have been putting pressure on Spain does not distract from the fact that the Blue Division was recalled on Spain's request... —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Regimetal names of the division & Order of Battle.

Isn't that Regiment 262 named Barcelona? I just know it from other historic documents that i partly forgot. If it's correct, then someone fix it ok? Also it needs order of battle article to understand. Minhdead2205 (talk) 13:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)