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Material archived from the Mountain Meadows massacre Talk page. (May – June 2004 approximate)

Lee Testimony

Of course this is an extremely sensitive subject. I don't think it is fair nor respectful to place as much blame on Lee's shoulders as seems to be done in the article without balanced presentation of the gist of his own testimony on the edge of death. It is altogether too tidy, and I think escapist, to blame "Lee". The article must not present that view as a closed case. We owe as much to Lee. After all, he of all the participants and perpetrators suffered and faced the horrific deed in this world, while the others carried their secret to a gaping, cackling grave. Tom (hawstom) 18:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Brooks Book

Relegating Brooks's book to a mere footnote in this article seems an injustice. Should not its contributions and implications be summarized? The material Brooks gathered implies quite squarely that the Massacre was not instigated solely by any one person, but that all of many people bore blame or responsibility.Tom (hawstom) 18:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

The Unhappy Convergence

Mountain Meadows Massacre is an important cathartic study. Wikipedia can add value to the study by frankly presenting the full stew that brewed previous to boiling over that original September 11th. All the following errors or provocations should be mentioned. Some are listed below somewhat chronologically:

  • Mormonism and Christianity classic feud
  • Depredations in Missouri, esp. Far West and Haun's Mill
  • Secretive Plural Marriage antagonized Gentiles
  • Joseph Smith betrayal and killing destroyed Mormon affinity for USA.
  • Brigham Young instituted temple endowment promise to pray always that Joseph Smith's blood be avenged on the nation.
  • Utah isolation cut Mormons off from meaningful peer review and sealed de facto secession from USA.
  • Public Plural Marriage antagonized Gentiles further and set up Mormons for siege mentality and misplaced zeal
  • 1850's Reformation zeal and excess conditioned Mormons to build a mental wall between religion and moral thinking.
  • Parley Pratt's murder in Arkansas by ex-husband of a plural wife
  • US Army raised to put down Mormon secession attitude.
  • Military organized in Utah to defend against United States. Mormons cultivated Indian alliance against the Americans.
  • Arkansan Fancher party joined with Missouri Wildcats who bragged about depredations and Smith murder.
  • Mormon Apostle George A. Smith used cavalier and inflammatory language in southern Utah regarding the Fancher party as they moved south from SLC, saying probably no "innocent blood" among them.
  • Cedar City stake president Isaac Haight ordered the party massacred.

The affair was much too complicated to be placed at Lee's feet, and the testimony presented by Brooks weighs much more heavily on George A. Smith and Isaac C. Haight than on any of the unhappy enlisted men who did the deed, including Lee. And as the President of the Church, Brigham Young bore grave responsibility for setting such a vindictive tone in the church and territory for the unimaginable depredations of Missouri and the betrayals of Nauvoo. Tom (hawstom) 18:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

1850's Mormon Utah

Mid 1850's Mormon Utah was in a frenzy. Mormons were singing (some more frightening) versions of "Up, Awake, Ye Defenders of Zion" (Hymns 248), "Praise to the Man" (Hymns 27), and "O Ye Mountains High" (Hymns 34). Men were trying to get wives until there was "scarcely a girl over 14 in the territory not married or about to be" married. It isn't hard hard at all to imagine something like the Mountain Meadows Massacre happening in such a climate. What is hard is imagining myself there resisting participation. Tom (hawstom) 18:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

June 2004 edits

I am going to be working a little on this article. Tom (hawstom) 19:45, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I changed Mormons to Latter-day Saints to be more fair to Community of Christ and others who will say, "Hey! MMM wasn't our doing." Tom (hawstom) 19:45, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Tom, you need to relax and let this article lie for a while. General coverage of the topic is adequate for now. Given the Church's silence on this issue and the disputes surrounding various details, it would be useful to see how the Church responds (if at all) as well as how the public and the members respond to the upcoming Walker-Turley-Leonard book. If folks want to understand other details under the Brook, Bagley, or Denton POVs, the reference is there for people to find them. If you continue to insist on interpolating Brook's POV in these related articles (especially your interpretation of Brook and your speculative claim that Brook's POV is a "mainstream" (whatever that is supposed to mean) POV, you're inviting an edit war with me. You already know that I generally loathe you're edits and that I think you express yourself and Mormonism oddly and poorly. So don't be surprised if you continue to poke the hive. —B|Talk 01:03, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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