Talk:Bellamy salute

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Deleted Links

I deleted the links this anonymous editor added, as they point to an individual's highly-biased and unsubstantiated rant. ➥the Epopt 22:29, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

Removed reference to this - it was argued and decided in 1943 (and thus couldn't have been the reason for a change of salutes in 1942), and also did NOT "unfavorably compare compulsory recitation of the pledge to Nazi and Communist totalitarianism" - see [1] if you want to read the decision. —Stormie 00:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to edit. I just want to comment. What is the context of this picture? I've just recently been made aware of this 'controversy' regarding the Belamy salute/ Nazi salute. It's not really a controversy since it appears to be promulgated by one lone nutter. I seriously question how widespread the use of the Belamy salute was. My now deceased parents were in school during the time that the Belamy salute would have been in practise yet they never once mentioned anything about this. You'd think it would be an interesting anecdote and would have been mentioned more often by people from that era.

So, simply because your parents never mentioned it is proof that it never happened? 69.252.171.182 20:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Palm upward?

The description of the salute states that the hand is extended "palm upward" toward the flag, so why does the picture clearly depict students performing the salute with their palms facing down? --Cheapestcostavoider 08:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because they are not doing it right. It's easier just to extend the arm from the heart gesture. Since this had no negative connotations at the time, it was no big deal. Paul B 00:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then why does the quoted text read "At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward..."?72.211.100.236 (talk) 00:06, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Continue reading. The last sentence you quoted actually says, in full: "Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to align with the forehead and close to it." This is clearly describing the standard military salute, which was apparently the first step of the full Bellamy salute. Then it continues: "Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.” At the words, “to my Flag,” the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side." So, the part of the salute that actually involves an outstretched arm, is meant to be palm upward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.121.12.249 (talk) 07:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's called "The Flag of the United States; It's History and Symbolism" by James A. Moss Published by The United States Flag Association. Copyright 1930 There is an interesting bit of text and a couple of graphics about what seems to be similar to the "Heil Hitler" salute of the day. this 1930 book which clearly states that in Washington D. C. children were being taught to hold their hand over their heart as is done today,but part way through the oath, the children stiffly outstretch their right arm in the very distinctive, "Heil Hitler" salute as you'll see in the illustration I sent you. 98.220.18.55 (talk) 08:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rex Curry

Should Dr. Rex Currys information be used? Or at least linked on Wikipedia? I don't know much about him or the controversy but he appears to have found allot of information that it not being utilised. Robert C Prenic 08:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He is not a reliable source — he does not hesitate to invent any "fact" he needs to support his fantasies. If you can use his work to lead you to interesting information, go ahead. But if Curry were where I first saw the statement "the United States has a flag," I'd look for another source to verify it before I believed it. ➥the Epopt 14:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, looking into it. The Great Dr. Robert C Prenic the 3rd, all Adademic Degrees. 15:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As per Epopt, but to mention another reason that Curry can't be linked to from Wikipedia: his site has been blacklisted because of some tedious cross-language spamming last year. To get a flavour of the man, try Usenet: [2]. — Matt Crypto 15:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Curry, youself (Matt Crypto) support his ideas [3] and Paul B fights on with Wikipedia to get his ideas recognised. This, and him, are getting a bit wierd. [wikipedia-lies.html]. The Great Dr. Robert C Prenic the 3rd, all Adademic Degrees. 15:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, yeah. Obviously, I don't support his ideas, in case that was ever in doubt ;-) See also User:Matt Crypto/Rebuke. — Matt Crypto 16:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Read the pages, LOL. OK, so the Swastika can be broken down into an S. But what references does he give for this association with Socialism? None. This is crazy. The Most Honourably Great Sir Dr. Robert C Prenic the 3rd, all Adademic Degrees. 16:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The S-rune represents Sozialismus because that's the only German word that begins with S, obviously. —Tamfang (talk) 06:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DAR

An editor removed this material:

In 1943, the Daughters of the American Revolution, initially resistant to the change, endorsed the hand-on-heart gesture during the Pledge.^[1]

With the note, "Removed some pointless historical trivia. What does this small group's opinion have to do with anything?"[4] I've restored it because the DAR were an important patriotic organization at the time, and the fact that there was opposition to the change is significant. Will Beback talk 00:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It'll have to be reworded significantly if it is to be included. I'll see what I can do. Tchernobog (talk) 12:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Fried, Richard M. (1999). The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!: Pageantry and Patriotism in Cold-War America. New York: Oxford University Press (USA). p. 12. ISBN 0-19-513417-6.

removed image of hitler salute

removed image added by anon ip--Work permit (talk) 04:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Postwar revival?

In the closing seconds of a film of Harold Macmillan's visit to DePauw in 1958 the audience appear to give a Bellamy salute. The footage is on YouTube. Color Footage of Prime Minister Harold Macmillan's 1958 Visit to DePauw University Yet the impression given in the article is that the practice ended in the war. If that's misleading it calls for revision. Lachrie (talk) 17:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to a comment made on the YouTube video, it is a local custom of that particular university. 76.28.245.234 (talk) 13:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Palm vertical (almost as if reaching for a handshake) is rather a striking difference from Bellamy. —Tamfang (talk) 23:39, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Religious Use

Certain churches in the Philippines (at least) use this salute towards the altar in there here and now. Does this derive from the brief US occupation, or more directly from the Roman salute itself?

As someone who had never HEARD of the Bellamy salute until recently, I was quite starteed to witness 500 people -- some of whom I know -- suddenly perform a NAZI SALUTE in the middle of mass!!

66.105.218.11 (talk) 17:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong historical terms

What we nowadays say was the"Nazi salute" wasn't really the Nazi salute, it was all over. Quite interesting. Why don't we learn such things in school? --178.197.226.232 (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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What is the difference?

The article repeatedly says there was "confusion" between the Bellamy salute and the "similar" Nazi salute, but never gives any tangible evidence of distinction. Seems like subtle NPOV violation to assert the existence of a distinction but never illustrate one. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 17:35, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello KeithTyler: From the extended quotation under History, the Bellamy salute is performed by first raising the hand to the forehead in a military salute, and then "the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag". And in the next paragraph to explain one possible reason for confusion with the Nazi salute: "Though the instruction called for the palm to be up, many found this awkward, and performed it with the palm down (see pictures above)." Compare to the description in Nazi salute: "The salute was performed by extending the right arm to the neck and straightening the hand so that it is parallel to the arm", i.e. without the preceding military salute, and with the palm down throughout. Kbseah (talk) 20:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Fried, Richard M. (1999). The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!: Pageantry and Patriotism in Cold-War America. New York: Oxford University Press (USA). p. 12. ISBN 0-19-513417-6.

[1]