Talk:Subdivisions of England

Out of date?

This all looks a bit odd to be honest. There seems to be no mention of the Local Authority admin level. There's a section outlining changes "proposed for 2004". Is the artical just out of date?

Cities and boroughs

An explanation of the difference between "Cities" and "Cities and Boroughs" would be useful here. Vicki Rosenzweig

I agree. The reference used here is the CIA World Fact Book, and even if I do not doubt that the facts are correct, my experience is that it can sometimes be structured in an archetypical way, which may lead to misinterpretation. I am just surprised over the lack of structure for the articles on the subdivisons of England and the UK and this is what I'm trying to adress. -- Mic

- It looks like the term "city borough" is no longer used. A Google search of the official .gov.uk domain reveals mention of no "city and borough"s and only three "city boroughs": Peterborough, Durham and Sunderland. The last two in historical contexts. Of the three, only Sunderland appears on the CIA's list. As the 2002 fact book didn't include Wolverhampton's or Brighton's promotion to city status in 2000, I expect it's also missed out the end of "city borough"s.

Google's cache reveals that at www.government-online.co.uk (a limited company in Stockport, not a governemnt site) there used to be a lot of pages referring to "Manchester city borough council" etc., which have now changed to read "Manchester city concil".

I've rearranged the lists to bring "cities" and "city boroughs" together and questioned the distinction. Andy G 20:44 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Weird

This is an absolutely weird article; the administrative regions of England are as follows:

• Shire counties, eg Cornwall, with their component
  • district councils
• Unitary authorities like Rutland and Brighton and Hove
• Metropolitan counties like West Yorkshire, with their component
  • metropolitan districts, eg Bradford MDC
• London boroughs (royal boroughs no distinction)

jimfbleak 15:21 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes it's certainly odd, but I expect the CIA got their classifications from somewhere. It would be nice to trace where they did come from before replacing them with more up-to-date groupings. Incidentally-

• Metropolitan counties no longer exist administratively; see article. E.g. West Midlands is now Birmingham, Coventry, Sandwell, Dudley etc. The names are still commonly used as a geographical convenience.
• Two of the Unitary Authoriites, Rutland and Herefordshire are also historical shire counties - is "shire counties" the right name?

The regions named certainly match those on the Ordnance Survey administratvie map of GB, so it's just the groupings that are odd. Andy G 19:55 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Milton Keynes

By what logic is e.g. Milton Keynes an "Administrative county"? It has never been a county, and is at present known as a "Unitary Authority". Andy G 19:11, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It has been an administrative county since April 1, 1997. Please see county of Milton Keynes, which quotes from [1], which makes this clear. Morwen 11:54, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)

Oh. Mea culpa. I see we also have a "County of Bath and North East Somerset". I get the feeling the term "county" has been hijacked to describe any old legislative area the government want, rather than what people normally think of as a county. I can't see a DJ reading out a letter from "Maisie in Bath and North East Somerset". Andy G 18:52, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

We also have a bunch of Ceremonial counties of England, which are the ones people use geographically today. They are basically the same as the 1974 counties, but with Cleveland, Humberside, and Avon abolished, and Herefordshire and Rutland restored. I am pondering about how to integrate the articles into a big counties of England article. Morwen 18:54, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)

Assembly NE

This article needs updating, as an Assembly referenum is only going to be held in the NE now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.157.83 (talk • contribs) .

Some Questions / Comments

I think this statement about Lord-Lieutenancy counties is questionable: These counties are sometimes used by people when describing where they live in England. I've never heard or seen anyone refer to where they come from with reference to a Lord-Lieutenant's seat. It sounds unlikely to me. Is there any evidence for this?

Secondly, is the City of London actually a London borough? If the city's authority is legally different shouldn't it have its own listing as 'county-level subnational entities' on this page? Also, who actually governs the inns of court? Are they local authorities in their own right, or areas that are not within any local authority?

Lastly, if The "shire counties" were also created in 1974 and are legally known as non-metropolitan counties why are we calling them "shire counties"? Isn't it better to stick to legal names rather than making up alternative names and putting them in quotation marks? Stringops 17:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Page move?

Should this reflect Local government in Scotland and move to Local government in England? (currently redirects here, and more articles link to this redirect than any other) MRSC 17:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I'd say "Administrative divisions of" gives more indication that the article will address areas more than the machinery of local government; perhaps it's Local government in Scotland et al that might benefit from a rename...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 01:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

For some reason I expect Administrative divisions of England to mention health authorities or other kinds of divisions. Which other articles do you propose moving, aside from the Scotland one? MRSC 06:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't (yet) have a firm idea, as I'm not sure whether the kinds of "divisions" or "areas" addressed in these articles are best identified as "(national) administrative divisions", "administrative country subdivisions", or something else. (I'm thinking worldwide.) What's your experience...?  I do feel, however, that "Local government in..." is probably too vague a name per the areas/machinery distinction above. Thanks for your input, David (talk) 09:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I would say that this article is already straying beyond the scope of "divisions" as it has a light sprinkling of the functions of local government (talking occasionally about "powers" but not saying which ones); I think this could do with expansion. MRSC 10:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Expansion and/or clarification... I'm interested, though, by your reading of "Administrative divisions of England" since I agree that "administrative divisions", even when in the context of a country, doesn't necessarily imply counties, provinces, municipalities, etc, etc; hence my musing above. Yours, David (talk) 12:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Bedfordshire

Just thought I'd point out that Bedfordshire is actually in the East region, not the Southeast, so it's in the wrong position in the table. I would try to do it myself, but I'm not sure how to edit tables in Wikipedia! Can anyone help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.127.142 (talk) 12:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Berkshire, Isle of Wight, Herefordshire

Should Berkshire appear in the Shire County section? Has it not been replaced in its entirety by 6 Unitary Authorities (though it still remains as a ceremonial county)? And why does IoW, which is a unitary authority, have a county council - isn't this the same as all other unitary authorites? And if it is to be a "county unitary authority", then should Herefordshire also have the same status? Bazonka (talk) 20:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Steady on - some things to clear up here for you! Berkshire is unusual in that the non-metropolitan county still exists legally - the non-metropolitan districts merely inherited the functions of the abolished county council. The Isle of Wight is the only unitary authority where the non-metropolitan county became a non-metropolitan district (in all other instances a non-metropolitan district becomes also a non-metropolitan county). Finally Herefordshire is a non-metropolitan district which gained non-metropolitan county status too to make it a unitary area. It however is not one of the 1974 non-metropolitan counties. David (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The table is therefore correct. :) David (talk) 23:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for my ignorance, but in what way does Berkshire still exist? Administratively it doesn't, but legally it does. How? And what's the difference between the "district-only" unitary authorities, and the (one) "county-only" unitary authority - other than their having different types of predecessor authorities? Today, they are exactly the same. I don't think that this article should distinguish between the types (although it may make mention of their history). Bazonka (talk) 17:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In the end, it's all technical and what exists legally. On the ground, in day-to-day life and administration, there is no difference to the different types of unitary authority, be they metropolitan boroughs, London boroughs, the Isles of Scilly, Herefordshire, the Berkshire districts, etc. The differences are merely technical and how they are actually unitary authorities (there being no such thing actually as a "unitary authority" in law - the term is used when there is only one local authority controlling an area of land, rather than two). Berkshire does still exist as a non-metropolitan county as the 1974 county was not abolished when the councils went unitary (in the same way how the 6 metropolitan counties were not abolished when their councils went unitary in 1986). This article should distinguish between them, on the basis that technically they are different, but in the end all unitary authorities, however they came to be, are pretty much the same kettle of fish.

As with many things in English law and practice, the deeper you look into something the more complex it gets and usually it's better not to think too much about it! Certainly took a while for me to get my head around it all. David (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this needs to be made clearer in the article. I'll have a think about how to sort it out without making it any more opaque... Bazonka (talk) 19:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

If you think a non-ceremonial Berkshire exists, kindly provide a link to the county council's website and give us the HQ's postal address. This area of local government is full of history-denying nostalgia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:5988:EC00:DD15:2186:E814:1DF6 (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

The answer as to why they can't do that, history-denier, was given 14 years ago (I know I'm late in replying 9 months later, but that's nothing compared to your nostalgic carrying on of a 14 year old conversation!): "Berkshire is unusual in that the non-metropolitan county still exists legally - the non-metropolitan districts merely inherited the functions of the abolished county council."

It's simply like the Metropolitan Counties in that the county council was abolished, but not the county itself. Other break-ups of the period (Avon, Humberside and Cleveland) explicitly abolished the county when creating the 'unitary authorities'. And this continues elsewhere in the law - the Lieutenancies Act 1997 (what created the 'ceremonial' counties) considers Berkshire as a still-extant 1972 county and so belonging to part 2 (c), while any other 'ceremonial' county with at least one 'unitary authority' belongs to part 2 (b) and is listed with the county-level local authorities belonging to it in part 3. [2] 86.18.220.144 (talk) 18:47, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Numbers wrong

One of the numbers in the first image is wrong - there are 46 unitary authorities, not 41. 84.65.52.11 (talk) 22:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Maps need to be updated

With last year's changes to unitary authorities in Cheshire and Bedfordshire, a couple of the maps in this article are now out of date. Can these be updated please? A blank png map is available on Commons but I can't figure out how to amend it and use it here. Additionally, many other articles need to have their maps updated, e.g. Cornwall which shows the county highlighted on a map of England with old Cheshire/Beds borders. Bazonka (talk) 09:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I have added a detailed map that shows the de-facto administrative units. The existing other maps on the page aren't mine but I can produce equivalent versions of them. XrysD (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Scilly/UAs

Isle of Scilly may have a unitary kind of government, but they are not Unitary authorities of England in the sense of a non-metropolitan district + non-metropolitan county. They predate this, like the City of London. MRSC (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

And they are certainly do not constitute a district within a two-teir structure, which is where you have put them. The Scillies either need to be listed with the unitary authorities (because for all practical purposes this is what they are), or in a separate section of their own (which is probably overkill). Before your edits it was shown that the Isles of Scilly were not a normal unitary authority, being sui generis. Also, the article now shows unitary authorities to be a type of district within the two tier structure, which is totally wrong. Reversion time. Bazonka (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, Scilly should not be presented as a district in a two-tier structure. What perhaps being missed is that unitary authorities are simultaneously non-metropolitan districts and non-metropolitan counties, so there is a rationale for including in both sections. In any case, I think it is a failing of the structure of the article, not explaining that clearly. MRSC (talk) 09:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, not really. I know what you're driving at, but unitary authorities aren't districts or counties - they're a different kettle of fish entirely, and so I feel that they should be listed separately. But I'll wait till you've finished all your editing, and then take a look at what you've done. I'll let you know if I disagree with any of your changes. Cheers, Bazonka (talk) 09:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

moved from Talk:MRSC

I have made some further amendments to the Subdivisions of England article. Mostly reordering stuff to make it hang together a bit more logically.
The one change that you may not agree with is that I have completely separated the unitary authorities from the two-tier county/district hierarchy. To my mind they really didn't sit comfortably there - UAs are neither counties nor districts, and so I think it is clearer and less confusing to explain them separately.
There may still be some work to tidy up some stuff about ceremonial counties which is within the Administrative Divisions section - not really appropriate there.
Let me know if you disagree with anything I've done, and maybe we can discuss a way forward. Cheers, Bazonka (talk) 18:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

end of section moved from Talk:MRSC

Unitary authorities *are* both counties and districts. You can't get away from that and it is misleading to say otherwise. More importantly it contradicts the source material. We can't reflect personal views. Ceremonial counties should either have a separate section *or* be integrated into the text. The argument for integrating into the text is that the ceremonial counties are based on the administrative divisions. We could, remove them altogether. The challenge with this article is to present a complex situation in a way that is easy to understand without becoming inaccurate. MRSC (talk) 04:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree with you. UAs have the powers of counties and districts, but this does not make them counties or districts in themselves - they are a different beast entirely. I'd be interested to see what your source says (it's a book, so I can't look at it easily), but in any case, I feel that listing the UAs in the County/District section is confusing. User:Dpaajones has previously made useful contributions to this article - I will ask him to take a look and offer his opinion. Cheers, Bazonka (talk) 10:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Most unitary authorities are legally a non-metropolitan district and a non-metropolitan county. However, some are not: the unitary authorities of Berkshire for example are only non-metropolitan districts, as Berkshire has not been abolished as a non-metropolitan county. The same is true of the unitary authorities of the metropolitan counties, which have not actually been abolished, only their powers transferred to the metropolitan districts. Then there are the unitary authorities of Greater London: this is of course even more tricky. Greater London/the region of London is an administrative/local government entity in itself... are the London boroughs & the City of London really unitary authorities then? (Especially since the creation of the regional/city-wide London government c. 2000.) As for the Isles of Scilly... well, to all intents and purposes it is a unitary authority, but is a sui generis/unique one.

Basically, there is no such thing legally as a unitary authority. It is a term used for a local government entity that is the one principle authority for its patch, perhaps with civil parishes underneath, but otherwise the only local authority for a particular area. Most exist because they are both a non-metropolitan district and non-metropolitan county, others exist because the metropolitan/Berkshire county no longer exercises the functions of a county, whilst the Isles of Scilly is a unitary authority because it is specifically set up in that way, separate from Cornwall. As for the London boroughs & the City... I'm not sure if they really can be classed as unitary authorities since the creation of the London Mayor, etc, around 2000. London is the only region in England with actual local government/devolved powers and Greater London is once again the top-tier of local government in that part of England.

So in terms of this article, and wider in Wikipedia, perhaps a major rethink is required. A unitary authority is a term used to describe particular authorities that find themselves in the situation where they are the main local government for an area. It is not a legal term used in Acts of Parliament or Statutory Instruments. They can be grouped into 4 groups: those that are legally both a county and a district; those that are only districts but where the county no longer exercises its functions; the situation in London with the London boroughs & the City (though these are perhaps no longer strictly unitary authorities); and finally the Isles of Scilly is a totally unique entity, deliberately established as a unitary authority (though the legislation of course does not state this, as the term "unitary authority" is quite a recent invention). Of course the City of London is also a sui generis entity, which exists by prescription and not by a specific Act of Parliament or such. However it does quite neatly (in terms of day-to-day administrative/local government functions) fit into the London scheme of things, alongside the London boroughs. David (talk) 10:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually this article has just had a major rethink and rewrite. Personally I thought that it was mostly OK before, now it seems a bit confused. Bazonka (talk) 12:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm really sorry to hear you consider unitary authorities created in the 1990s/2009 not to be non-metropolitan counties and non-metropolitan districts, but that is precisely what they are. They are not in any way a "different beast" or a "different kettle of fish". The legislation creating the unitary authorities (the Local Government Act 1992 and the relevant statutory instruments) makes it quite clear they are non-metropolitan districts and non-metropolitan counties. Dpaajones is quite right to point out the districts of Berkshire are slightly different, and this is currently reflected in the article. Academic texts and journal articles tend to describe only the post-1992 unitary authorities as such (with good reason as Dpaajones explained). Finally, Scilly and the City of London are rightly described as sui generis as 1) they predate the 1965/1974 reforms all the other divisions were created in 2) they have a selection of powers different from all the other divisions and 3) they have local authorities constituted differently from all the others. MRSC (talk) 13:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I stand corrected. From a legal point of view, you are right. However, for all practical purposes, UAs are something different. Bazonka (talk) 12:09, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Subdivisions

I think it would be helpful for a run down from top level to bottom level to help understand the divisions. I.e.

UK (Soverign State) England (country) East Midlands (region) Nottinghamshire (county) ... then honestly I don't know what the next level would be, and what its technical name is. For example I have always wrote I live in Nottingham when asked my city (as I live in Nottinghamshire but not in the city. Does the fact that Nottingham is a Unitary District mean that it governs the whole county, i.e. the whole of Nottinghamshire?

85.197.220.70 (talk) 05:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't the "Hierarchical list of regions, counties and districts" already answer that? If that isn't clear enough, how could it be made clearer? Nottingham Unitary Authority governs Nottingham, Nottinghamshire County Council governs the rest of Nottinghamshire excluding Nottingham. -- Dr Greg  talk  12:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

UK - England - (Region) - Unitary Authority -or- UK - England - (Region) - County Council - District - (possible Civil Parish).

Don't get hung up on the whole metropolitan/non-metropolitan stuff, as it's all nomenclature at this point. Metropolitan counties no longer have county councils, and, as such, their metropolitan boroughs are all unitary authorities now. Non-metropolitan counties are the ones that are subdivided into councils. Councils, or portions of councils, can be divided into civil parishes sometimes, but not always, and much of England is unparished. London is unique. It's divided into a bunch of boroughs, as well as The City of London, aka The Square Mile. But, all-in-all, it's Greater-London. I believe it's now possible for civil parishes to be formed within boroughs. 98.221.141.21 (talk) 17:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Is this article pointless?

This wiki article either has the wrong title or it is pointless. There are a multitude of subdivisions of England. If this is about administrative subdivisions then the title should say so, and deal with that. The first line says there are non-administrative ceremonial county subdivisions, so presumably it is not just about administrative subdivisions. Each of the very many ways England is subdivided should have its own article, as often is the case. It seems this article would achieve more by being nothing more than a tabled list of different ways in which England is subdivided. How about Westminster parliamentary constituencies to get started? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:21, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

"Political subdivisions of England"? Compare "Administrative geography of the United Kingdom", "Local government in England", "Subdivisions of Scotland", and "Local government in Scotland". Seems like a lot of pointless repetition to me.--DrewMek (talk) 22:44, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Update

I have created an update to the article. Does this work and can references and legislation be put here to implement in to my update and once it is up to standard I can update the sections.

My sandbox: user:Chocolateediter/sandbox

Please use reply in text on here to send a notification to me so I can see it in good time. Chocolateediter (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

NUTs region system, until 2016, was the basis for city regions, especially for North East England. Brit vote to leave EU must have initiated a response to create closer combined authorities, starting with Tees Valley. Chocolateediter (talk) 22:22, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

regions and metropolitan counties

These have been abolished and so should only be mentioned in an article about the history of English local government divisions. If folks would like to prove that regions and/or met counties exist, would they kindly post links to those organisations' websites and provide the postal address of their headquarters. I don't deny that a met county can be used as a ceremonial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:c7d:5988:ec00:dd15:2186:e814:1df6 (talk) 15:04, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

See above comment about Berkshire. Same concept (council abolished with districts taking on its functions, but county not abolished), only a decade prior. As 'ceremonial' counties (ie counties for the purpose of the Lieutenancies Act 1997) there's a good few counties - including the Met Counties and Berkshire - that aren't explicitly listed, instead described as "any other areas in England which are counties for the purposes of the Local Government Act 1972." The list of counties needed to be explicitly described is kept up-to-date - Cumbria was added this year after being split into two 'unitary authorities'. If you are denying that the Met Counties still exist administratively (even as empty shells that only exist on paper - which is all anyone is saying they are), then you are denying that they exist ceremonially...

The regions, absolutely are gone (other than Greater London) - what little administrative function they had went in 2011. They lost their status as electoral areas for the EU Parliament when the UK left the EU. They continue to exist for statistical purposes, but that isn't anything to do with this article. 86.18.220.144 (talk) 19:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)