Talk:Merv

Charles Marvin

Is it accurate to describe Charles Marvin as a Russophobe? I realize he described himself as "both a Russophile and Russophobe" (intro by Louis Dupree to his book "The Russian Advance Towards India", but in the book itself it appears he is an almost credulous believer in Russian good intentions. Kd5mdk 06:04, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tekke

The present inhabitants of the oasis are Turkomans of the Tekke tribe.

Tekke links to a type of Sufi practice or meeting place. Surely this isn't connected to the tribe. Wrong wikilink? Thanks --Dpr 02:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Could you re-edit the sentence to make it accurate? --Wetman 15:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Now links to disambig. Chris 08:02, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"Some say..."

"Some say...: "Some say that Merv is the origin of Hindu belief in Mount Meru, which Hinduism declares to be the center of the world. Others suggest, however, that Mount Meru is another name for Mount Kailas in Tibet." This is babble unless we can be told who said... and when they said it... and even why this is relevant to Merv at all. Is there actually anything more than a very general confluence of phonemes in this? --Wetman 15:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Zend-Avesta vs Avesta

I just ran across the sentence "Merv is mentioned with 'Bakhdi' (Balkh) in the geography of the Zend-Avesta, which probably dates from the 7th century BCE though traditionally given extravagantly earlier dates."

I'm not sure what exactly that means: Is the reference in the Avesta or in the Zend? (the commentaries on the Avesta).

The texts of the Avesta is significantly older than its commentaries, but the commentaries linguistically date to our side of the BCE/CE line.

For now, I've rephrased the above sentence to read "Merv is mentioned with Bakhdi (Balkh) in the geography of the Zend-Avesta (commentaries on the Avesta)."

I hope thats an acceptable solution (unless of course, the mention isn't in the commentaries but in the Avesta proper). -- Fullstop 09:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Largest city in the world?

I've removed the following reference from the main article space:

In the twelfth century Merv was briefly the largest city in the world [1].

These lists are both interesting and amusing, but it looks like generalizations and rough estimates. Such remarks need very good references. Valentinian ^(talk) 16:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes but....Ive put it back in in a weakened form. They are of course guesstimates (based on figures for food imports, etc, I believe) but historical population estimates almost by definition lack any solid numbers, so a lesser standard of proof can be accepted than for current figures. They are at any rate the best we have and if the source is respectable academically as this seems to be I see no reason to omit it. At the very least it conveys Merv's importance at that time. Jameswilson 22:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

There are just too many uncertainties for the old one, but the new version seems ok. Valentinian ^(talk) 07:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Population

Article Brahui people mentions that Dravidian people Brahui's live in this area but doesnt however mentions numbers. Does anybody know about Brahui presence in this area today? Luka Jačov 23:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for Disambiguation page and subsequent renaming of this article

MERV is also a unit used for filter performance —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mkbnett (talk • contribs) 23:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC). Yes brauhi people live in balochistan province.They are actually balochs and we have seen the existence of baloch in merv. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.229.85 (talk) 11:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Large edit?

I'm a new Wikipedia member but I happen to know a lot about Merv -- I'm a grad student and I've just written a small overview paper on the archaeology which has been done at Merv. I was wondering if you would be receptive to a major edit/embellishment on most of the sections, especially the "Remains" section. I guarantee it will be well-sourced and from a neutral point of view; most of my sources were Preliminary Reports by the International Merv Project and the Ancient Merv Project. If it's bad do not hesitate to revert to a previous version. I have already written the new version, I am waiting for some feedback before I post it. Xaphoo 03:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed it. I hope it's ok. Xaphoo 19:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Ban Chao ever reach Merv?

User:99.130.8.150 added a claim previously in this article that the Chinese general Ban Chao reached Merv in 97 CE. Today he or she repeated this claim on the Ban Chao page and gave the same reference - a link to a tourist website: [2] which makes the romantic claim that: "Accompanied by horsemen arrayed in bright red leather,he himself went as far west as Merv and made contacts with Parthia,Babylonia and Syria." There is no reference or even date for this amazing account given on the website. There is absolutely no such reference in any of the Chinese historical texts, or any other ancient source. This appears to be pure fantasy. All that we really know about these contacts with the West is included in the 'Chapter on the Western Regions' in the Hou Hanshu which says:

"In the ninth Yongyuan year [97 CE], during the reign of Emperor He, the Protector General Ban Chao sent Gan Ying to Da Qin [the Roman Empire]. He reached Tiaozhi [Characene and Susiana] next to a large sea [the Persian Gulf]. He wanted to cross it, but the sailors of the western frontier of Anxi [Parthia] said to him: "The ocean is huge. Those making the round trip can do it in three months if the winds are favourable. However, if you encounter winds that delay you, it can take two years. That is why all the men who go by sea take stores for three years. The vast ocean urges men to think of their country, and get homesick, and some of them die." When [Gan] Ying heard this, he discontinued (his trip)."

You can check this out in my draft translation at: [3] or wait until my new book - a much revised and enlarged version - which is due to be published soon: Through the Jade Gate to Rome: A Study of the Silk Routes during the Later Han Dynasty 1st to 2nd Centuries CE. An annotated translation of the Chronicle on the ‘Western Regions’ from the Hou Hanshu. Booksurge. ISBN 978-1-4392-2134-1. It contains detailed discussions of the movements of Ban Chao as well as Gan Ying. In any case, there is no evidence whatsoever that Ban Chao ever got farther than the Tarim Basin except for one brief reference in his bibliography that he once went as far (south) as the "Hanging Passages," which were probably in northern Hunza. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 04:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

"Largest city in the world"

Based on modern estimates, Merv was not the largest city in the world at any point in the 12th century; nor was it really that close. To my knowledge, though perhaps there was another, even larger, city that I don't know about, Constantinople consistently held that title. Back in the 80's, it was assumed that the 11th and 12th centuries were periods of economic and demographic decline across the board in the Byzantine empire, including Constantinople, but since the 90's archaeological and literary evidence has consistently shown that there was, in fact, widespread economic and population *growth* in that period. Recent estimates of Constantinople's 12th century population by historians like Paul Magdalino and Angeliki Laiou give a minimum estimate of 300,000, but likely closer to 400,000, for the mid-late 12th century. Considering this, I'm going to remove the portions of the article that claim Merv was the largest city in the world.

Jeandukeofalecon (talk) 00:33, 3 November 2017 (UTC)JeanDukeofAlecon

Article

@Visioncurve:, I would highly advise you to request Marw al-S̲h̲āhid̲j̲ān at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. Historic cities of the Islamic world has a section devoted to Merv, I'll send it to you now. Also, as LouisAragon said, the article has some non-WP:RS sources. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:, no problem, and thanks for your guidance. Regarding some non-WP:RS sources identified in the article's content, would you or LouisAragon mind removing them whenever you have time. I'll later find better sources and copy-edit the page once again. Let's make it a good article together, since I believe that this, once a majestic city, deserves it! Thank you!--Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 15:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• To mention the Mongol invasion as a genocide, you will need rather strong sourcing. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Removed Islamstory, as it was not WP:RS. Citations such as the Guardian, Britannica, Tourstoturkmenistan, https://www.medeniyet.gov.tm/, and Imam Reza Net are not WP:RS either. Also, there is still a lot of information that can be added in the pre-Islamic history of Merv. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:39, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The common name for 'Soltangala' seems in fact to be 'Sultan Kala'. More information on that can be found in Cities of medieval Iran and Cities in the Pre-Modern Islamic World. The Urban Impact of Religion, State and Society. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Merv/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TrangaBellam (talk · contribs) 21:02, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

This article is far from a GA with much of the content being dubious, unresolved tags, ample violations of core-policies, and most of the authoritative monographs not consulted.

I will pick out four particular examples —

(a) Denoting the Mongol campaign as one of the bloodiest genocides, in lead.

Of the used sources: Bonner is an art-historian, with expertise in geometries employed by Islamic artists. Goldstein is a professor of IR, with no training in any kind of history. Naimark is a professor of Eastern European Studies. None has any expertise in Mongols.

Notwithstanding the credibility of sources, the line runs afoul of WP:DUE - most of the sources (esp. standard textbooks) refrain from such extraordinary claims.

(b) peacefully took over Merv under the leadership of Tughril—the Ghaznavid sultan Mas'ud I was extremely unpopular in the city — an unsourced line.

Peacock (2015; EUP) writes,

The conquest of the great city of Merv, for instance, is not even distinctly recorded; the last Ghaznavid garrison is mentioned in 428/1037, but later the same year sources allude to Chaghrı’s presence there. [..]

In the absence of Ghaznavid authority, it was left to urban notables to decide how to react. Some towns, such as Abiward, seem to have defected to the Seljuks on the initiative of these local elites. Years of over-taxation, religious oppression, and Mas‘ud’s own personal venality and incompetence meant that Ghaznavid governance was regarded with suspicion and sometimes outright hostility by many groups in Khurasan.

At the same time, urban society in Khurasan was fragmented by factionalism. A decision made by the elite – or one group of it – to accept Seljuk authority might be opposed by other social groups. In Merv, Herat, and Nishapur, the Seljuks faced popular rebellions which seem to have been instigated by the lower social classes, and it was these, rather than Ghaznavid forces, which on occasion temporarily evicted the Seljuks.

The drafting of the history is too simplistic and reductive. We are not writing for a K-9 audience.

(c) However, starting from 1118, it served as the capital of the whole empire.

Ref 33 cites p. 33-47 but quotes from p. 74. Notwithstanding (what might be) a typo, this is a misrepresentation — did the Sultanate of Iraq (with all its complexities, as discussed in the following pages) obliviate into thin air or cease claiming themselves as the Seljuks?

(d) The city was notable as a home for immigrants from the Arab lands and those from Sogdia and elsewhere in Central Asia

What does the source write?

In 673 Khurasan, the 'eastern lands', became a separate governorate, of which Merv served as the capital and as the all-important seat of the governor. It was thus the source of patronage. This was precisely the time that eastern Iran was heavily settled by Arab immigrants. Naturally they clustered around the major seats of power, such as Merv and Nishapur.

You need to paraphrase the sources but only after understanding them so as to not rob them of their contexts.

(e) and great-grandson Ahmad Sanjar (sultan from 1118 to 1157) were buried at Merv, the latter at the Tomb of Ahmad Sanjar.

This is highly contested. See this website (which is not a RS) but is good enough.

Long paragraphs are sourced to websites like "Islam Story", "Tourstoturkmenistan", "Asthabharati". The history section is largely a cluster of factoids, most of which are either dubious or incorrect.

Tertius Chandler's demographic estimates are nonsensical and multiple historians have criticized his usage of sources.

The years from the fall of Sanjar to the Mongol invasion are not covered. As is the reconstruction after invasion.

As HistoryofIran said, there is almost nothing on pre-Islamic Merv.

There are bound volumes on the topic!

The entire section on "Uzbeks in Merv and its final destruction" is sourced to a >150 year old chronicle.

There are many better sources, compliant with WP:HISTRS.

The entire section on "Nineteenth century" is sourced to a news article, which says nothing relevant. The other one is supposedly a 2008 work by Martin Ewans - actually, it is a collection of century-old primary sources.

Rewrite with better sources - Ch. 9 of Alexander Morrison's The Russian Conquest of Central Asia provides some coverage and pointer to relevant sources.

Climate section is unsourced.

TrangaBellam (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, I think the article needs radical improvements and as it currently stands, is far from GA standards. Would like to hear your opinion. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

✗ Fail - GA status is impossible without radical improvements. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)