Talk:Cyrano de Bergerac

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RfC: Article title

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I am closing this no consensus. After discounting all the WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT comments its to even to say one way or the other. AlbinoFerret 20:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to propose a change to the title of this article and Cyrano de Bergerac (play). I believe that the most famous “Cyrano de Bergerac” is the play, not the writer, or, at least, that they are of equal fame. In either case, the writer is not more famous than the play.

Therefore:

Option 1: Move Cyrano de Bergerac to Cyrano de Bergerac (writer) and Cyrano de Bergerac (play) to Cyrano de Bergerac. (Support)
Option 2: Move Cyrano de Bergerac to Cyrano de Bergerac (writer) and leave Cyrano de Bergerac (play) as it is. (Neutral, may support as a compromise)
Option 3: Leave them both as they are. (Oppose)

Option 1

Support - Not familiar with the author or play, but after a quick search engine test, I would concur that "the most famous “Cyrano de Bergerac” is the play". Thus, per WP:COMMONNAME, it would seem that dis-ambiguous Cyrano de Bergerac should point to the play, and not the author. NickCT (talk) 17:23, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2

Support: Seems the simplest solution. Best avoidance of any confusion. DaltonCastle (talk) 23:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Per DaltonCastle and as a sort of compromise. Eman235/talk 00:08, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support: The solution with the least confusion. - Kautilya3 (talk) 00:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support I cannot be bothered to dig up the relevant link, but as I understand it, MOS recommends that when two equally famous subjects share a name, the articles should be given a clarifying title of some kind, and a disambiguation page be created. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3

Oppose – For the same reasons as discussed in September 2012. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:58, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Michael Bednarek: The case is completely different here. When this was being discussed, the title Cyrano de Bergerac belonged to a disambiguation page (totally unacceptable) and moving it to the article about the writer was the most obvious choice. Still, one editor during that discussion pointed out that the play is more famous than the writer, which, I believe, is true. This editor′s comments were not addressed then, and this is why I decided to request this RfC.--The Traditionalist (talk) 09:02, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Summoned by bot. The current article title and disambiguation notice is fine. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Coretheapple (talk) 02:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Summoned by bot. Concur with above. —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:41, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Summoned though RfC board. This is the main topic, play is important, but not main. MQoS (talk) 12:26, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Summoned by bot. It seems fine as is. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Summoned by bot. Current title and notice seem sufficient to me as well. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 19:06, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Also summoned by bot and support the current name Alec Station (talk) 07:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Coretheapple. No indication there is need for this. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 01:12, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. … … … … I have amended the 'about' at the head of the article.Pincrete (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Note: I did not list this at WP:RM on purpose.

--The Traditionalist (talk) 17:09, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Was Abel his father or brother or both?

The article says first "He was the son of Abel de Cyrano" and then "... help of his own brother Abel de Cyrano" -- so, was Abel his father or brother or both? 93.185.19.156 (talk) 11:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Explain his name and origin

I must preface my remarks by saying I am not an expert in the French language, French history, or French geography, so what I say is very much open for questioning.

I'd like an explicit explanation of his name and origin. The article says he was born in Paris rather than Gascony as had been believed. But what is the basis for the incorrect belief? Is it simply an assumption from the name "de Bergerac"? Or is there more to it?

Firstly, based on the "wide" definition in the article about Gascony, Bergerac is in not in Gascony. Of course, Gascony is vaguely defined and the borders of that time were in flux. But Bergerac was within the 1477 borders of Guyenne (see map in that article). It is clearly within the Dordogne department in the province of Guyenne. See: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vidal-Lablache_n°9_-_Provinces_en_1789.jpg

Secondly, "de Bergerac" is described in the French article as his dit name. In an earlier discussion of his name, an editor wrote 'The French article is titled “Savinien de Cyrano de Bergerac” and begins “Savinien de Cyrano, dit de Bergerac” (Savinien de Cyrano, called de Bergerac).' The dit name is sometimes described as a nickname, but that's not quite right because it had legal status. The article Dit Name focuses on French-Canadian genealogy. The Military and Paramilitary Organizations section of the article Pseudonym has a better explanation. Cyrano de Bergerac, as most know him, or an ancestor could have acquired that surname for reasons other than coming from the commune Bergerac. It might have been ironical, perhaps because he had some characteristic in common with people from the commune. Or it might be that his first contact with the army occurred with a unit from that commune. Nothing can be assumed. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 06:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article (via the French article) states that the estate was “at Mauvières and Bergerac in the Vallée de Chevreuse”. See Note 11 for an explanation of how the name Bergerac became attached to land a long way from Guyenne. ⚜ Moilleadóir ✍ 03:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged Homosexuality

There's not a shred of real evidence as to Cyrano's sexual tastes. Trying to enroll him as a homosexual is specious and deceptive. Since his so-called 'lover' (based on no evidence) was the object of so much unfriendly writing by Cyrano, we can't take any view on the subject. But someone with an agenda does take a view in the article. When did Wikipedia become the site for hunches and guesses? 47.232.145.208 (talk) 07:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Incidental trivia

‘Cyrano's short life is poorly documented’ is no excuse for supplying instead reams of incidental information about his forebears and family. Does no one understand the concept of précis? 86.26.82.191 (talk) 21:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]