Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Maintenance/Village pump

This discussion was copied from the Village pump history: [1]. • Benc • 08:46, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

VfD Madness

Check out some VfD discussions: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/ACORN and Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Asheron's Call 2. Now I'm all for letting VfD be as long as it needs to be, so each article gets a fair trial before being deleted or kept, but this is absurd, such VfD discussions should be removed as it comes to light that they are not actually proper, heck one was never even voted for deletion, simply "cleanup" on the vfd page. Such discussions make it harder to sift through the material that actually might deserve deletion, and make accurate votes. Is there a policy to remove such discussions before they lapse, or should we start thinking of one? —siroχo 18:54, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

My understanding is that fixed articles can be removed from VfD, but I'm not about to be the one to remove them. anthony (see warning) 18:57, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It should be a condition of listing something on VfD that if there's an immediate consensus to keep and no possibility of the article being deleted, you have to withdraw your nomination rather than have the article pointlessly listed for days on end. This is particularly relevant to Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/ACORN. I have used this example before, but if someone was to list George W. Bush for deletion it would immediately be taken off. No one would allow the VfD tag to sit on the top of the page for a week, but on more minor articles there is no explicit policy (as far as I know) about removing spurious listings. — Trilobite (Talk) 19:57, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Instead of talking about it why doesn't someone just remove it? And then, if you get reverted, then take it here, so we have something specific to talk about. anthony (see warning) 20:47, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Done. People really should be a bit bolder! Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 22:27, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hah! In some ways there is a culture of fear on Wikipedia. People are often afraid to take major action, for fear of the nasty response. Those who aren't afraid to take major action are often the inflictors of nastiness. Throw in the whole vandal/troll lot and it's a delightful little mix. But for the fact I regularly abstract myself from the whole thing and indulge in some light reading, editing my favorite topics, etc., I'd get wikistressed in a week and leave! (a regular wikipedian)

I find wikipedia a pretty nice place on the whole. Vandals never bother me, they always lose thier battles because we outnumber them. Trolls are more of a problem - if only we could get our act together and sort out a decent trolling policy- but still they are a bunch of losers who get their kicks out of startinfg trouble. They wouldn't do if they had girlfriends/boyfriends, I'm certainly not going to let them bother me. Inflicters of nastiness? I agree, they can be more of a problem. But there really aren't that many around. Most people here are very nice (group hug anyone?). Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 00:29, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I object to this unwarrented attack against those of us who do not have girlfriends/boyfriends... ;-) Sometimes, it really doesn't seem worth it to be bold when you know that someone else is just going to turn around 2 seconds later and revert, owing to some obscure POV that he or she (and possibly 2 or 3 other people in the whole world) believe in. I haven't found a culture of fear here, but I do find a fertile battleground for the extremely marginalized to wage whatever wars they are obsessed with. AdmN 00:48, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(I really don't know if if I should be responding to a bloke who has shown me a picture of his longfellow and has publicly stated that "[he wants to] examine [my] Hilbert space with his unitary operator. But I suppose it's ok since he did offer to buy me Carbonara)Anyway on to my reply. Yes being bold does mean you sometimes get reverted - but in general I've found it rarely happens to me. Yes there are POV pushers, but they are very much in the minority. (Of course it doesn't always seem like that because POV pushers tend to be loud). Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 10:42, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Look, folks, you guys are really acting out of line. I am dead set against people using VfD to make a point, and that includes Anthony's serial "keep" votes as well as people who list each others' user pages as well as people walking their political demons. All of this is abuse. However, we have the community. The ACORN vote was 100% keep, so what was the harm of its being listed? Leave it there for 5 days. It was going to be kept, and the whole of the vote would have gone in the discussion page -- making it instantly a quick removal in the future, if anyone nominated it again. We don't need to do the trollish thing and start removing VfD pages that we think shouldn't be there. If the community is voting "keep," that stupid VfD tag will do no harm for five days. It's just 5 days, folks. Yes, you can ask for early removal. But let's do this by the rules. You'll notice, btw, that I voted to keep the ACORN article & even accused the nominator of making a point, but that doesn't mean we should break the page to settle the score. Doing that is fully as bad as a hostile admin doing a speedy delete on a page he or she doesn't like. Geogre 02:49, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The point on ACORN is that there was never a vote to delete! Not even the nominator did, he just wanted cleanup. That is abuse of the system, and makes VfD a tougher place to work in. I understand your desire to allow the policy to work itself through, and agree that no valid discussion should be removed early but as i'm sure you know, VfD has grown in leaps and bounds alongside Wikipedia, and we have to have some protection against people abusing VfD to suggest cleanup of articles. —siroχo 04:00, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Back before VfD got all legalistic, I used to routinely remove entries where the article had been fixed and there was no longer any reason for deletion. So did everyone else. I don't see why it is "trollish". VFD currently generates 674 KB of HTML, which takes quite some time to load on my 56 KB modem. I agree with all your other points about using VFD for stunts. Perhaps it would be useful to bring back the concept of moving long discussions off the main page, just leaving a pointer. -- Tim Starling 04:00, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. What's more I disaprove of all the legalistic nonsense. I didn't remove the listings to "settle a score" and I doubt very much that the original listers were deleberately "abusing VfD" .I mistake was made, which I corrected. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 06:58, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, y'all will notice that on the VfD page itself I said that the nominator could remove the tag, but it's not me who's legalistic. VfD has already been used as proof of "troll" charges. That means that we've got to follow the rules to the letter. Again, I would like it if it were as Tim describes it. (Kurt, btw, didn't make a mistake. He said he did the listing because he had heard that VfD is where real Clean Up takes place.) Anyway, I just think that it's worth having a request, in the votes, for an admin to make an early removal. If there are no delete votes at all, I agree with an admin (Theresa, Siroxo, me, any one of the 200+ of us), making the removal, but I don't want to see VfD dragged into yet another RfC. That's why I'm acting legalistic: it has been made evidence, so now it needs to have some kind of regulation. Geogre 13:18, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, btw, I want to propose a different category of delete, too. I'm working on a proposal now for a kind of "Nonsense, but not speedy delete" that is handled differently, with a default to keep. If we have a managed removal from VfD, we should also have a managed removal of articles. (See my talk page for the ongoing discussion of the "manage delete" proposal that is almost ready for prime time and namespace.) Geogre 13:18, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A practical suggestion

Sometimes, the consensus to keep an article is clear because:

1. 24 hours have passed after the article was improperly listed, and there are at least 2-3 keep votes with no delete votes; or
2. 24 hours have passed after a major rewrite that makes the listing invalid, with no further delete votes.

VfD discussions about these articles are relatively short, but they still clutter up the main page, resulting in ridiculous download times for modem users. Instead of summarily removing the discussion from VfD (which will raise eyebrows), wait 24 hours, then replace:

{{Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/PageName}}

with:

''After 24 hours, the unanimous consensus is to '''keep''' this article, though you are welcome to read and contribute to the [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/PageName|discussion]].''

This will prevent the contents of the discussion from being displayed on the main VfD page while leaving the discussion quickly available. If the consensus changes (i.e., someone votes delete), then this can be instantly reverted to re-include the discussion back on the main VfD page. To prevent ridiculuous revert wars, if the discussion is re-included for any reason, then don't un-include it a second time. • Benc • 04:59, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But that still leaves the vfd note on the page itself which is bad. Honestly what's wrong with raising a few eyebrows now and then? Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 06:58, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nothing's wrong with raising a few eyebrows, actually... it's when they're lowered that things go wrong. ;-) Seriously, I suppose you could remove the {{vfd}} tag from the page for obvious incorrect listings without arising anyone's ire. But, like Geogre, I don't recommend the unilateral complete removal of entries from WP:VFD. Just un-include them like I suggested above, keeping a link to the discussion. Keep at least some of the paper trail in place. It'll go away in a few days. • Benc • 07:16, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That seems sensible. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 10:26, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree. The VfD tag should be on all and only those pages actually listed on VfD.

If the first few votes are to keep, IMO the person who listed the article should seriously consider closing the discussion and delisting it. An article should only be delisted early if all the votes are to keep. If anyone says delete, it should stay the full five days. Essentially, in delisting, the person who listed the article is changing their vote in the face of consensus against them. Such moves should be applauded and encouraged.

An article should never be deleted early unless it is a candidate for speedy deletion, and even then I preach caution. Andrewa 10:46, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I find I must retract the last two paragraphs. They are contrary to policy, which allows early removal in some of these cases, and on reflection that's a good thing. See below. Andrewa 17:11, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I like Benc's suggestion, but I agree that the tag does no actual harm for 5 days. If folks are being lax about removing tags at the end of 5 days, we need to be shaken and throttled for it. But I really don't see what the tag does that's so evil for such a short time. At any rate, what's going on is the the nominators really need to close discussion early. I know that I've done it several times. When a nomination is made for hobbyhorse riding, that's when we get trouble. Like I said, we're in a mess with VfD because of the way it's being used, since it's being abused, the obligation is for us to be more regular and legal than otherwise. I don't want trollish nominations or trollfeeding removals. I do, by the way, have a specific example in mind, where an admin took an article with 33 delete and 13 (or 8, depending on sock votes) keeps and unilaterally decided it should be kept, as that admin had voted to keep. There is no way to argue with that admin if we establish practice. Geogre 13:25, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I fail to see how removing a ridiculous nomination feeds the trolls. As for an admin not deleting an article - I don't think that has anything to do with early removal of ridiculous votes. Remember that the only nominations that we are talking about are those who should never have been listed in the first place. Also remember that this is a wiki, and so a dodgy early removal can easily be put back. We should be flexible and use common sense. (Anyway I'm pretty convinced that being legalistic encorages trolling, as they think of ways of causing trouble but without actually breaking the letter of the rule) Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 15:18, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Theresa, I think things have gotten legal in response to VfD being used as evidence in prosecution. All I'm saying is that someone who believes that a nomination is absurd -- other than the article author -- should ask for consensus on removal. Let 24 hours go by, and then an admin can do the removal, with copying of decision into the discussion tab. If we do that, I think we'll be ok. What I'm worried about is folks acting without notice. I agree with you far more than you might suspect, but I'm worried about, well, I won't say who, people who will use the whole thing as proof of the caballa or proof that they're being persecuted or proof that someone is a troll, etc. Geogre 16:39, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I seem to be a common scold, but what I objected to was invisible and silent removals. That is bad. Just announce it, folks. Geogre 16:39, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That IMO makes a lot of sense. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 16:48, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Looking for consensus

Am I correct in thinking that no one here objects to the original nominator removing a vfd candidate early if voting suggest that there is another way of dealing with it or if there is clearly no consensus to delete? (We could add this to the policy if we have consensus) Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 15:23, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd certainly support that, although it's a lot bolder than what I suggested above, and I have a confession to make: I now see that is already policy! See Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Unlisting a page from VfD.

So it is! (I really should have read the policy first before trying to gather support to add in what's already there) Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 22:05, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Although I take (and agree with) your point about legalism above, I think that we should also develop the policy to make VfD more concise, and to move the rhetoric elsewhere. I think this is already the intention of Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Commenting on a nomination for deletion. But it's not explicit and IMO should be.

What concerns me most about these long debates is their tone. In particular it concerns me that some of our more active admins on VfD seem a little short on wikilove. While adminship is no big deal, I think it's reasonable to expect admins to set a good example, and in fact personally I don't think Wikipedia can survive if this trend keeps up. If that's true we'll need to address it someday, and asap is my advice. Andrewa 16:38, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, of course, Theresa. That's what I was aiming at. All I want is that we make it known that we're removing a page, that the VfD goes into the talk page (to prevent a future debate, if nothing else), that it be done by an admin, and, I hope, the time frame be 48 hours instead of 24. In the past, admins removing nominations have been done only in truly outrageous cases (VfD'ing the main page, or Richard Nixon or something like that). Geogre 16:42, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything in policy that says you need to be an admin to remove a listing from VfD if the article is to be kept. And there's certainly no technical reason you need to be one. You do need to be a signed in user IMO, but that's all. Andrewa 17:22, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I know, but I do want it to be as regular as possible, so I'm actually asking for a change by desseutude (rather than a de jure change). If we agree, by practice, to look for an admin to do it, we can at least be sure to have someone to blame or encourage. I don't want to open the lid on policy, just asking that we, by practice, try to leave it to administrators -- the ranks of which grow every day. Geogre 00:08, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I really don't think that is necessary. I don't like admins having special authority. The point is, if someone removes an article early without cause, it can easily be reverted. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 07:47, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, crud! Now Netholic is on VfD deciding things for everyone after an hour because he wants quick removals. He points to a discussion going on somewhere else altogether. Let's not make unilateral decisions, please. Geogre 01:56, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I presume Netholic is doing this because he/she thinks it's appropriate, but please Netholic, what you are doing is way beyond any consensus and very liable to make others insist that it's never OK to do anything before the full five days. -- Jmabel 08:15, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

I think it's much worse than that, Jmabel. I have been asked to open an RfC on Netoholic for what he's doing, and I refuse, but I can't say that others will be as conflict-averse as me. Further note that this is a proposal to do away with VfD, and he's going ahead and acting upon it. I can "propose" that Wikipedia delete all Pokemon and redirect to Games, but I can't imagine acting upon that. (I also don't like the idea of edit wars over reverting redirects or the servers filling up with redirects for every possible deletion candidate. I don't trust myself to determine if some things are deletable, and I sure don't trust anyone else. That's why I trust everyone else in a VfD forum.) Geogre 01:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)