User:Barnaby dawson/Views archive
This page is a copy of page which was questioned in terms of factual accuracy and neutrality. It should not be considered an authoritative source.
This article compares various viewpoints held by creationists and mainstream scientists.
As explained in the Creation vs. evolution debate article, there exists a continuum of views in the debate. Many people would agree with one side on some points and the other side on other points. Particularly, old-earth creationists agree with the mainstream science side on matters not directly relating to the modern evolutionary synthesis. In the left-hand column below, this article includes the views of creationists who claim that their model is consistent with the scientific evidence.
Points are displayed side by side for ease of comparison. Facts offered in support of those viewpoints are also given.
The nature of science
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Creationism[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
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Geology
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Creationism[edit]The creationist model of geology is Flood geology, and is defined by the story of Noah's Ark, as reported in Genesis. Most major geological formations are explained in terms of a global flood which, according to the Ussher-Lightfoot Calendar, occured approximately 4,500 years ago, destroying all animal life on the planet with the exception of the animals and people preserved in the ark, and having a serious impact on Earth's geology. |
Mainstream science[edit]The mainstream model of geology is defined by the principle of Uniformitarianism, that is, the idea that geological phenomena are the result of gradual geological processes which took place over billions of years. As presented by creationists, flood geology violates the laws of physics. Most flood models deal with the water after the flood by proposing that it became our present oceans. In order to change the density and/or temperature of at least a quarter of the earth's crust fast enough to raise and lower the ocean floor in a matter of months would require mechanisms beyond any proposed in any of the flood models, and would violate basic fluid equations without massive energy transformations. |
What is the age of the earth?
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Mainstream science[edit]
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How did geological features originate?
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Creationism[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
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Radiometric dating?
[edit]Radiometric dating is an effort to determine the age of rocks and organisms. It is conducted by measuring the rate of radioactive decay of certain isotopes (which can be observed), the ratio of original and daughter isotopes in the sample (which can be observed), and then calculating how long it would take for the isotopes to decay to present proportions from some unobserved proportion when the object originally formed. In the case of Carbon dating, this proportion is based on the observable proportion of C-12 to C-14 in the environment today.
Creationism[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
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Plate tectonics
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Creationism[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
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Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons, come in the form of oil, coal, or natural gas, and are found in sedimentary rock, in the form of large oil or natural gas resevoirs, or coal deposits.
Creation science[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
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Fossilization
[edit]Fossils are formed in three ways: most commonly when dead plant and animal matter is buried in sediment quickly, before the dead organism has time to decay; if they are not buried, they decay in the environment, and cannot form fossils. Alternatively, fossils can be formed when a dead organism settles in an anoxic environment, or by petrification. The vast majority of fossils are found in solid sedimentary rocks.
Creationism[edit]During the global flood, some of the plants and animals were buried in soft sediments that were laid down quickly during the flood. After the floodwaters receded, the sediments dried and hardened into sedimentary strata. Fossils are therefore the remains of animals that died during the global flood, approximately 4,500 years ago. |
Mainstream science[edit]Varves within the geologic column show seasonal layers over many, many years. In many cases, such as the Green River formation, these layers are too fine to have settled out in less than several weeks per layer. Varves in New England show evidence of climate change 17,500 to 13,500 years ago which matches climate patterns in other parts of the world. These layers prove that the geological record was not produced in just one event. The geological eras and fossil records are consistent worldwide. The flood myth cannot explain the worldwide agreement between "apparent" geological eras and several different (independent) radiometric and nonradiometric dating methods. The fossil record is sorted in an evolutionary order, unlike what would be expected from a global flood scenario. Standard models explain the following pieces of evidence that flood geology fails in doing:
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Loess
[edit]The Loess Plateau in China has a layer of loess more than 300 m thick. The Loess Plateau occurs around the downwind edges of the Ordos Desert, and the grain size of the loess decreases the further one gets from the desert. [Vandenberghe et al. 1997]
Loess has a high salt and carbonate content, and contains tiny plant remains. It is a fertile soil rich in carbonates, and has a yellow tinge caused by the oxidation of iron-bearing minerals since it was deposited. China’s Yellow River and Yellow Sea are so named because of the loess suspended in them.
Several Russian geologists have concluded that loess was formed simultaneously with the ice found throughout the loess. Hills of loess, known as yedomas in Russian, contain broken trees "in the wildest disorder," and the buried wood is called "Noah's wood" by the natives. [Nordenskiold, pp. 26, 311].
“The yedoma deposits could only have been formed by cryogenous-eolian [cold and windy] processes.” [V. K. Ryabchun, 816-817].
Mammoths are often found frozen solid in Siberian loess.
Creationism[edit]The loess was formed immediately following the flood. The rich soils of the antediluvian world were torn up in the flood, and redeposited as sediment. Due to rapid cooling at higher latitudes and the "great wind" described in Genesis 8:1, the still wet loess froze while being blown by the strong wind. The mammoths, trees, and other forms of life intact inside. In subsequent years, the ice melted, leading to the erosion of loess between hills. The argument regarding paleosoils is rejected, because radiometric dating methods are rejected (see section below). It is argued that the flood theory is superior, because:
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Mainstream science[edit]The loes deposits are wind-blown sediments from the Ordos Desert, and the grain size of the loess decreases the further one gets from the desert. [Vandenberghe et al. 1997] It is argued that the flood theory fails, because:
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Salt domes
[edit]A salt dome is formed when a thick bed of evaporite minerals (mainly salt, or halite) found at depth intrudes vertically into surrounding rock strata, forming a diapir. It is able to do this because the salt is less dense than the surrounding strata. The higher strata bend as the salt rises. Large deposits of fossil fuels are typically found between impermeable rock strata and salt, particularly in the Gulf of Mexico. One example of an island formed by a salt dome is Avery Island in Louisiana.
Creationism[edit]During the flood, salt accompanying the release of subterranean water (the "fountains of the great deep") caused the flood waters to become supersatured with salt, and precipitated thick layers of salt on the seafloor. The salt was quickly buried by other, denser sediments, which remained soft. In some areas, the salt, which was less dense than the higher sediments, pushed up through higher layers, forming salt domes, in which the other sedimentary layers bent around the salt dome. Dead plant and animal matter that was buried beneath the denswer sediments rose to rest between the salt and rock strata, where it was converted into fossil fuels.
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Mainstream science[edit]The salt that forms these deposits was laid down in prehistoric times, mainly in places where inland seas were periodically connected and disconnected from oceans. As these seas are cut off from the main body of water, the water evaporates, leaving immense salt pans. Over time, the salt is covered with sediment and becomes buried. The salt pushed to the surface through sedimentary layers that had already hardened into solid rock, forming large bulbous domes, sheets, pillars and other structures as it rose. The strata imediately above the dome that are not penetrated are pushed upward, creating a dome-like reservoir above the salt where petroleum can gather. How could the Flood deposit layers of solid salt? Such layers are sometimes meters in width, interbedded with sediments containing marine fossils. This apparently occurs when a body of salt water has its fresh-water intake cut off, and then evaporates. These layers can occur more or less at random times in the geological history, and have characteristic fossils on either side. Therefore, if the fossils were themselves laid down during a catastrophic flood, there are, it seems, only two choices: (1) the salt layers were themselves laid down at the same time, during the heavy rains that began the flooding, or (2) the salt is a later intrusion. I suspect that both will prove insuperable difficulties for a theory of flood deposition of the geologic column and its fossils. [Jackson et al, 1990] |
Limestone
[edit]Many areas contain deep limestone deposits, such as those observed on the white cliffs of Dover, UK, and Normandy France, which are between 600-1000ft deep and extend under the channel, or the Bahamas Bank, where limestone extends almost 6 miles. Pure limestone is white, and impure limestone is yellow. Limestone can be formed either by slow accumulation from lime-secreting organisms, or quickly, as a result of the rapid release of carbonate-saturated groundwater, as observed in many Caribbean Islands.
Creationism[edit]During the flood, carbonate-saturated groundwater was released from subterranean water-sources ("the fountains of the great deep") under great pressure. When the water reached the surface, the pressure on the water dropped, and calcium carbonate (or limestone) was released from solution, and quickly precipitated and cemented, forming pure, white limestone deposits. It is argued that the flood explanation is superior, because:
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Mainstream science[edit]Limestone developed from the slow accumulation of limestone-secreting organisms over millenia. Uniformitarian processes explain limestone formations far better than catastrophism does.
Dolomites require no exceptional explanation. They form via diagenesis (a sort of chemical rearrangement in the deep subsurface) from calcite, the main ingredient of limestone. Creationism does not explain the origin of dolomite. There are roughly 5 x 1023 grams of limestone in the earth's sediments [Poldervaart, 1955], and the formation of calcite releases about 11,290 joules/gram [Weast, 1974, p. D63]. If only 10% of the limestone were formed during the Flood, the 5.6 x 1026 joules of heat released would be enough to boil the flood waters. How were limestone deposits formed? Much limestone is made of the skeletons of microscopic sea animals. Some deposits are thousands of meters thick. Were all those animals alive when the Flood started? If not, how can creationists reasonably explain the well-ordered sequence of fossils in the deposits? Roughly 1.5 x 1015 grams of calcium carbonate are deposited on the ocean floor each year. [Poldervaart, 1955] A deposition rate ten times as high for 5000 years before the Flood would still only account for less than 0.02% of limestone deposits. |
Biology
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Creationism[edit]Creationist biology is based on the idea that God created all life on the planet in a finite number of discrete forms, commonly called "kinds," which had the ability to vary significantly within their kind, but cannot arise spontaneously, and cannot change from one kind into another. As such, creationists ascribe to the law of biogenesis, that is, the idea that life can only come from life, as well as the idea of Irreducible complexity, that is, that life is designed with intricate and interconnected components for a purpose, rather than merely the result of variation and selection. Creationists believe that 7 pairs of each "clean" animal and 2 pairs of each "unclean" animal were taken onboard the ark during the flood, and that current species diversity is the result of mutation, variation, natural selection, and genetic drift following the release of the animals from the ark. |
Mainstream science[edit]Mainstream biology is defined by the idea of evolution, that is, that life develops from less diversity and less complexity to more diversity and more complexity through the process of variation (by means of genetic mutation and recombination), natural selection, and genetic drift. Consequently, they believe that all life on the planet shares a common ancestor. Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system which loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:
All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common [Lynch and Conery 2000; Hooper and Berg 2003; Dujon et al. 2004], and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible, but expected. In fact, it was predicted as early as 1939 [Muller 1939]. Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied; irreducibility was no obstacle to its formation [Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996]. Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization which does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level which biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considers sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gives no indication of how he makes his determinations. Moreover, systems which have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. The mousetrap which Behe uses as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch. The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella are known which lack these proteins. In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary [ref. in Ussery 1999]. The immune system example which Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies which mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system. |
What is the origin of the species?
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Creationism[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
Creationist sometimes ask why there is such a seeming lack of interest in reporting observations of speciation events. Four things account for this lack of interest. First, it appears that the biological community considers this a settled question. Many researchers feel that there are already ample reports in the literature. Second, most biologists accept the idea that speciation takes a long time (relative to human life spans). Because of this we would not expect to see many speciation events actually occur. The literature has many more examples where a speciation event has been inferred from evidence than it has examples where the event is seen. This is what we would expect if speciation takes a long time. Third, the literature contains many instances where a speciation event has been inferred. The number and quality of these cases may be evidence enough to convince most workers that speciation does occur. Finally, most of the current interest in speciation concerns theoretical issues. Most biologists are convinced that speciation occurs. What they want to know is how it occurs. One recent book on speciation (Otte and Endler 1989) has few example of observed speciation, but a lot of discussion of theory and mechanisms. Most of the reports, especially the recent reports, can be found in papers that describe experimental tests of hypotheses related to speciation. Usually these experiments focus on questions related to mechanisms of speciation. Examples of these questions include: Does speciation precede or follow adaptation to local ecological conditions? Is speciation a by-product of genetic divergence among populations or does it occur directly by natural selection through lower fitness of hybrids? How quickly does speciation occur? What roles do bottlenecks and genetic drift play in speciation? Can speciation occur sympatrically (i.e. can two or more lineages diverge while they are intermingled in the same place) or must the populations be separated in space or time? What roles do pleiotropy and genetic hitchhiking play in speciation? It is important to note that a common theme running through these questions is that they all attempt to address the issue of how speciation occurs. What evidence is necessary to show that a change produced in a population of organisms constitutes a speciation event? The answer to this question will depend on which species definition applies to the organisms involved. One advantage of the BSC is that it provides a reasonably unambiguous test that can be applied to possible speciation events. Recall that under the BSC species are defined as being reproductively isolated from other species. Demonstrating that a population is reproductively isolated (in a nontrivial way) from populations that it was formerly able to interbreed with shows that speciation has occurred. In practice, it is also necessary to show that at least one isolating mechanism with a hereditary basis is present. After all, just because a pair of critters don't breed during an experiment doesn't mean they can't breed or even that they won't breed. Debates about whether a speciation event has occurred often turn on whether isolating mechanisms have been produced. Mechanisms which produce reproductive isolation fall into two broad categories -- premating mechanisms and postmating mechanisms. Premating isolating mechanisms operate to keep species separate before mating occurs. Often they act to prevent mating altogether. Examples of premating mechanisms include ecological, temporal, behavioral and mechanical mechanisms. Ecological isolation occurs when species occupy or breed in different habitats. It is important to be careful when claiming ecological isolation. For example, I have a population of Dinobryon cylindricum (a colonial algal flagellate) growing in a culture tube in an environmental chamber. It's been there for three years (which is a lot of time in flagellate years! :-)). Even though there is no possibility that they will mate with the D. cylindricum in Lake Michigan, it would be silly to assert that they therefore constitute a separate species. Physical isolation alone does not constitute an isolating mechanism with an hereditary basis. Temporal isolation occurs when species breed at different times. This may be different times of the year or different times of day. Behavioral isolating mechanisms rely on organisms making a choice of whether to mate and a choice of who to mate with. Differences in courtship behavior, for instance, may be sufficient to prevent mating from occurring. A behavioral isolating mechanism should result in some sort of positive assortative mating. Simply put, positive assortative mating occurs when organisms that differ in some way tend to mate with organism that are like themselves. For example, if blonds mate exclusively with blonds, brunettes mate exclusively with brunettes, redheads mate exclusively with redheads (and those of us without much hair don't get to mate :-() the human population would exhibit a high degree of positive assortative mating. In most examples in the literature when positive assortative mating is seen it is not this strong. Positive assortative mating is especially important in discussions of sympatric speciation. Mechanical isolating mechanisms occur when morphological or physiological differences prevent normal mating. Postmating isolating mechanisms prevent hybrid offspring from developing or breeding when mating does occur. There are also several examples of postmating mechanisms. Mechanical postmating isolating mechanisms occur in those cases where mating is possible, but the gametes are unable to reach each other or to fuse. Mortality acts as an isolating mechanism when the hybrid dies prior to maturity. Sterility of hybrids can act as an isolating mechanism. Finally a reduction in the fitness of the hybrid offspring can isolate two populations. This happens when the F1 hybrid is fertile but the F2 hybrid has lower fitness than either of the parental species. There is no unambiguous criterion for determining that a speciation event has occurred in those cases where the BSC does not apply. This is especially true for obligately asexual organisms. Usually phenetic (e.g. phenotypic and genetic) differences between populations are used to justify a claim of speciation. A few caveats are germane to this. It is not obvious how much change is necessary to claim that a population has speciated. In my humble opinion, the difference between the "new species" and its "ancestor" should be at least as great as the differences among recognized species in the group (i.e. genus, family) involved. The investigator should show that the change is persistent. Finally, many organisms have life cycles/life histories that involve alternative morphologies and/or an ability to adjust their phenotypes in response to short term changes in ecological conditions. The investigator should be sure to rule these things out before claiming that a phenetic change constitutes a speciation event. The following are several examples of observations of speciation.
Population A + geotaxis, no gene flow Population B - geotaxis, no gene flow Population C + geotaxis, 30% gene flow Population D - geotaxis, 30% gene flow Selection was repeated within these populations each generations. After 38 generations the time to collect 50 flies had dropped from 6 hours to 2 hours in Pop A, from 4 hours to 4 minutes in Pop B, from 6 hours to 2 hours in Pop C and from 4 hours to 45 minutes in Pop D. Mate choice tests were performed. Positive assortative mating was found in all crosses. They concluded that reproductive isolation occurred under both allopatric and sympatric conditions when very strong selection was present. Hurd and Eisenberg (1975) performed a similar experiment on houseflies using 50% gene flow and got the same results.
"Hawthorn and apple "host races" of R. pomonella may therefore represent incipient species. However, it remains to be seen whether host-associated traits can evolve into effective enough barriers to gene flow to result eventually in the complete reproductive isolation of R. pomonella populations."
In 1964 five or six individuals of the polychaete worm, Nereis acuminata, were collected in Long Beach Harbor, California. These were allowed to grow into a population of thousands of individuals. Four pairs from this population were transferred to the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. For over 20 years these worms were used as test organisms in environmental toxicology. From 1986 to 1991 the Long Beach area was searched for populations of the worm. Two populations, P1 and P2, were found. Weinberg, et al. (1992) performed tests on these two populations and the Woods Hole population (WH) for both postmating and premating isolation. To test for postmating isolation, they looked at whether broods from crosses were successfully reared. The results below give the percentage of successful rearings for each group of crosses. WH × WH - 75% P1 × P1 - 95% P2 × P2 - 80% P1 × P2 - 77% WH × P1 - 0% WH × P2 - 0% They also found statistically significant premating isolation between the WH population and the field populations. Finally, the Woods Hole population showed slightly different karyotypes from the field populations. In some species the presence of intracellular bacterial parasites (or symbionts) is associated with postmating isolation. This results from a cytoplasmic incompatability between gametes from strains that have the parasite (or symbiont) and stains that don't. An example of this is seen in the mosquito Culex pipiens (Yen and Barr 1971). Compared to within strain matings, matings between strains from different geographic regions may may have any of three results: These matings may produce a normal number of offspring, they may produce a reduced number of offspring or they may produce no offspring. Reciprocal crosses may give the same or different results. In an incompatible cross, the egg and sperm nuclei fail to unite during fertilization. The egg dies during embryogenesis. In some of these strains, Yen and Barr (1971) found substantial numbers of Rickettsia-like microbes in adults, eggs and embryos. Compatibility of mosquito strains seems to be correlated with the strain of the microbe present. Mosquitoes that carry different strains of the microbe exhibit cytoplasmic incompatibility; those that carry the same strain of microbe are interfertile. Similar phenomena have been seen in a number of other insects. Microoganisms are seen in the eggs of both Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti. These two species do not normally hybridize. Following treatment with antibiotics, hybrids occur between them (Breeuwer and Werren 1990). In this case, the symbiont is associated with improper condensation of host chromosomes. For more examples and a critical review of this topic, see Thompson 1987. So far the BSC has applied to all of the experiments discussed. The following are a couple of major morphological changes produced in asexual species. Do these represent speciation events? The answer depends on how species is defined.
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The development of mammalian characteristics
[edit]Mammals are distinguished by the existence of mammary glands and hair. Mammals have a four chambered heart. Mammals have integumentary systems made up of three layers: the outermost epidermis, the dermis, and the hypodermis. All but a few (the monotremes) give live birth, distinguishing most mammals from all reptiles and birds, but not from a few types of fish (such as hammerhead sharks) who give live birth. Mammals are endothermic, distinguishing them from all other taxa but birds.
Creationism[edit]Mammals were created in a finite number of distinct and original forms, with characteristics particular to their form. A great number of these mammals died in the flood and their fossilized remains can be observed. The mammals that were taken onto the ark during the flood were released, dispersed, and through reproductive isolation, variation, and natural selection, evolved into the current diversity of mammals.
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Mainstream science[edit]Mammals share a common ancestor with reptiles.
Transition from synapsid reptiles to mammals is the best-documented transition between vertebrate classes. So far this series is known only as a series of genera or families; the transitions from species to species are not known. But the family sequence is quite complete. Each group is clearly related to both the group that came before, and the group that came after, and yet the sequence is so long that the fossils at the end are astoundingly different from those at the beginning. As Rowe recently said about this transition (in Szalay et al., 1993), "When sampling artifact is removed and all available character data analyzed [with computer phylogeny programs that do not assume anything about evolution], a highly corroborated, stable phylogeny remains, which is largely consistent with the temporal distributions of taxa recorded in the fossil record." Similarly, Gingerich has stated (1977) "While living mammals are well separated from other groups of animals today, the fossil record clearly shows their origin from a reptilian stock and permits one to trace the origin and radiation of mammals in considerable detail." For more details, see Kermack's superb and readable little book (1984), Kemp's more detailed but older book (1982), and read Szalay et al.'s recent collection of review articles (1993, vol. 1). This list starts with pelycosaurs (early synapsid reptiles) and continues with therapsids and cynodonts up to the first unarguable "mammal". Most of the changes in this transition involved elaborate repackaging of an expanded brain and special sense organs, remodeling of the jaws & teeth for more efficient eating, and changes in the limbs & vertebrae related to active, legs-under-the-body locomotion. Here are some differences to keep an eye on: Early Reptiles vs .Mammals
(*) The presence of a dentary-squamosal jaw joint has been arbitrarily selected as the defining trait of a mammal.
So, by the late Cretaceous the three groups of modern mammals were in place: monotremes, marsupials, and placentals. Placentals appear to have arisen in East Asia and spread to the Americas by the end of the Cretaceous. In the latest Cretaceous, placentals and marsupials had started to diversify a bit, and after the dinosaurs died out, in the Paleocene, this diversification accelerated. For instance, in the mid- Paleocene the placental fossils include a very primitive primate-like animal (Purgatorius - known only from a tooth, though, and may actually be an early ungulate), a herbivore-like jaw with molars that have flatter tops for better grinding (Protungulatum, probably an early ungulate), and an insectivore (Paranyctoides). The decision as to which was the first mammal is somewhat subjective. We are placing an inflexible classification system on a gradational series. What happened was that an intermediate group evolved from the 'true' reptiles, which gradually acquired mammalian characters until a point was reached where we have artificially drawn a line between reptiles and mammals. For instance, Pachygenulus and Kayentatherium are both far more mammal-like than reptile-like, but they are both called "reptiles". |
Views on the conduct of the debate
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Creationism[edit]
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Mainstream science[edit]
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References
[edit]- Evolution & creation, science & religion, facts & bias, by creationary scientist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati.
- Talk origins, a mainstream site detailing many arguments against creationist theories.
- Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences by the Steering Committee on Science and Creationism, National Academy of Sciences
- V. K. Ryabchun, “More about the Genesis of the Yedoma Deposit,” The Second International Conference on Permafrost: USSR Contribution, 13–28 July 1973 (Washington, D.C.: National Academy of Sciences, 1978), pp. 816–817.
- A. E. Nordenskiold, The Voyage of the Vega Round Asia and Europe, translated from Swedish by Alexander Leslie (New York: Macmillan and Co., 1882), p. 302.