Talk:Chiac

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This is so excellent! I'm very happy to see the correct spelling added -- I think I just assumed "shee-ack" was "chiaque".

One question: I've heard about revival, artists' use of Le Chiac, etc. I think there's even a dictionary or two somewhere. But I don't have any info, and can't find such on the Web. suggestions? --ESP 21:56, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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I also assumed "Chiac" was actually spelled "chiaque", seems its spelling look more "French". I'd like to know if there are any official sources for the correct spelling of that word.

As for good references for the chiac dialect, ESP, the only good reference I know that comes to my mind currently is the French book "Le dictionnaire acadien" ("The Acadian dictionary") by Yves Cormier.

Remi 15:00, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In regards to the line:

"With generations of contact with the dominant Anglophone community in the area, the local French dialect has been heavily influenced and corrupted by English."

Is it right to use the word "corrupted?" That word gives a negative connotation to the evolution of the language, first, and secondly, such a statement is a one-sided opinion.

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Documentaries

Would it be worthy of inclusion to mention that 2 documentaries were made (both by Michel brault) by the ONF about it ? These were : Éloge du chiac (1969)& L'Acadie, l'Acadie (1971). --Marc pasquin 17:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

two meanings?

I grew up and spent dozens of years in SouthEast New Brunswick, and I've heard the term Chiac used for the "second meaning" and not for the first, for which we would simply say "Acadian French". Chiac is a type of Acadian French. What are the sources on the first meaning? Does it really mean that too?--Sonjaaa 05:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Chiac, born and bred

As a "native chiac", I was pleased to see some documentation on my language!I'm familiar with the documentary "Éloge du chiac". Although outdated, I thought it was fascinating to see how Chiac was perceived then and how it is now. And to my knowledge, around here, it's always been spelled that way. To the comment that "chiaque" looked more french; well, the definition of chiac is, after all, a mixture of french and english, right? I also think that the line "corrupted by English" is too strong and negative.

Well, if we're going to go there, French corrupted English into it's current mess, so we're just returning the favor. :) --72.88.210.56 18:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

WTF. That "returning the favour" you are so proud of, is referred to throughout the world as a-s-s-i-m-i-l-a-t-i-o-n... thats not a good thing. :) You must be so glad as an Anglophone, that the world caters to you, what freedom, what happiness, what... convenience!

Questionable Content

The content of the page is recently becoming very vulgar in it's examples. There's no need for all the crotch jokes. They need to be removed.

I'm assuming you don't know anyone who speaks Chiac. 142.167.55.26 00:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

-I know people who speak chiac! I am not impressed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.139.0.55 (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Audio clips

Wouldn't it be nice to have some audio in this article? I have no idea how chiac sounds...

I would add some if it weren't for Wikipedia's misguided policy forbidding mp3s. -Adjusting 00:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

A not so telling example

"Moi chu acadienne, hein?" written : "Moi, j'suis Acadienne, hein ?" is perfectly good spoken french and quite admissible even in writing. Chris CII 12:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But the chu is not written, nor pronounced, as j'suis. It is chu.142.167.55.26 00:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

== Yes, but chu is used throughout Canadian French, insofar as I can tell. It is not specific to Chiac. - 12 July 2007

Assessment

I have assessed this as Start Class, as it contains more detail and organization than would be expected of a Stub, and of low importance, as it is a highly specific topic within Canada. Cheers, CP 03:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Example translations

I tried fixing this myself, but my changes were reverted.
Can anyone tell me why the following appear in the translations?
- Why does the of the 'Ej va driver mon truck à soir..' example start with 'Hey'? There's no equivalent in the original chiac sentence.
- Why do the english translations say bizarre things like 'it was right fun' instead of something more grammatical like 'it was really fun'?
Adjusting (talk) 00:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I reverted your changes and am happy to further discuss the matter here; thanks for starting a new section. Translation is not an exact science and different interpretations are possible, as the essence of translation is to capture the underlying meaning of the source text. (The introduction at translation is concise and good; I am not sure how familiar you are with translation theory.)

The first thing to recognise here is that we are dealing with a spoken language, and a language which for all practical purposes only exists orally, unlike English, which has a rich written literature. The examples given are colloquial and a literal translation cannot capture the nuance of meaning. But at the same time, this is a written encyclopedia, so the spoken utterances can be only inadequately represented.

"Hey" is a typical informal interjection in Canadian English, and clearly signals that what follows is the representation of a speech act. Chiac is a mixed language (as is the better-known franglais) and as such can use "hey" as a loanword to indicate the beginning of a new utterance. The equivalent in the source text is represented by the phoneme e, an abbreviation of et ("and"), which is used in French similarly to signal the beginning of a colloquial utterance.

"Right fun" is slightly different. Here the person who wrote the example is seeking to capture the flavour of the surrounding regional dialect of English, which may be more narrowly limited than Maritime English. (Indeed, the English spoken by people who also speak Chiac might arguably be considered an ethnolect, though to go further down that road would be original research.) "Right" is an adverb modifying the adjective "fun". The use of this word in this manner, as a strengthener, is common in other varieties of English, see List of dialects of the English language. In standard English, "really fun" would be fine, but the choice of the non-standard "right" signals that the variety of English used is locally specific; the linguistic norms are not globalised ones.

Another way to consider this issue is as one of linguistic register. The original utterance:

Ej va driver mon truck à soir puis ça va êt'e right la fun.

could conceivably be "translated" as:

I intend to conduct my lorry tonight, and it will be greatly amusing.

This version is heavily marked, in the linguistic sense (strangely, we don't seem to have an article on marked language), because it indicates formality, Britishness, and old-fashionedness. The version given:

Hey I'm going to drive my truck tonight and it's going to be right fun.

attempts to capture the flavour of the English-language speech of those people who use Chiac. I think that is a legitimate aim of the translation. Others may disagree, but I hope that these arguments give something to consider. BrainyBabe (talk) 09:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

What is the claim that the phoneme "e" is an abbreviation of "et" based on? I presume you're suggesting that "et je" [e ʒœ] has become ej [œʒ]. That vowel change seems unlikely to me. Speakers of chiac are also much more likely to use "pis" instead of "et". In my experience, "ej" is used in place of most instances of "je", not just those that appear at the beginning of a sentence. I still feel that the "hey" in the translation implies that the source sentence contained a similar interjection.

As for the use of "right", I can accept its use to convey a casual use of Maritime English, but it seems the subtlety of this choice will be lost on the average wikipedia reader (who is not familiar with the dialect). Upon reading "right fun", she is much more likely to assume (as I did) that this was a slip up in the translation rather than a conscious choice.

-Adjusting (talk) 18:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the word "right" here necessarily needs to represent a use of Maritime English, but any use of substandard language that reflects social and economic factors. To me, this is reminiscent of some older uses of southern English, such as "right neighborly" or something like that. I think it gives the same effect to those who are familiar with that kind of substandard usage in both languages. This is, by the way, coming from a U.S. southerner living in French Canada, so I hope I don't offend either group. Paxuniv (talk) 06:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I grew up in English in the Maritimes and to say "right fun" or "right some good", etc, was standard for us. I understand translation is not an exact science. I wonder about some choices that make it look like something unusual is going on. For example, tchenne. I live currently in Montreal, and that's pretty much how everybody says tient. And is it different from Tchein? Zeux ils pensont qu'y ownont le car Since this is phonetic approximation, is it really ownont and not ownons? Is Ca t'tente (I presume the C should have a cedilla) really different from the way almost all French-speakers say te tente? Speaking of cedilla, in c'té nouvelles light-là is c'té a swear word which would be common in Quebec (with a soft c and perhaps ie at the end instead of é) or a way of writing que tes (nouvelles lights-la) Is there a significant difference in pronunciation between C'é (and cé which appears later) and c'est? Etc I guess this is a bit picky, but it would held distinguish interesting differences. Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:21, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Questionable content (2)

I removed this: "Most other French Canadian groups, such as Québécois and Brayon, dislike Chiac as they find it to be a mockery of the French language." Someone should provide a reference for this, if it's true that some 'French Canadian groups' expressed this opinion towards Chiac/Acadian French. But in any case, it's not true to say that MOST French Canadian groups dislike Chiac. As a Québécois, I admit that speaking with someone from New Brunswick can be exotic and even funny sometimes (in a good way), but I've never heard of anyone here expressing any disdain of the Acadian French. And it's certainly not the opinion of the majority. 209.222.236.142 (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Response: Most people classify all French speakers from New Brunswick as Acadians. This is not at all true. The northwestern regions are intensely related to Quebec (people and language), we speak dialects quite similar to Joual. The main dialects in NB include Brayon and old Acadian. Brayons, for example, dislike chiac as some other Acadians do as well. Chiac from what I understand is mostly due to a large influence of Anglophones living around the Moncton area and influencing their speech for a very long time now. Chiac speakers like to claim it is a NEW language of some sort that can be taught, as if it is legitimate. Although I agree language belongs to the speakers themselves and not, say what solely exists in a dictionary (as languages were oral before anything), I do not believe a mix of english and french constitues a language on its own, it is simply two languages spoken at the same time. There are no rules to it; however chiac speakers like to claim there are (there are videos about this debate on youtube by the way if you need a "reference"). Chiac traditionally comes from a play on the nomenclature for the town of Shediac. I would claim however that although most Acadian speakers never spoke like Shediac or "Chiac" speakers it has become widespread among Acadians all the way into the northern Acadian peninsula with the younger generations. However, the Northwestern region of NB cannot be classified as Chiac at all. There is little difference between the language spoken in the Bas St. Laurent of Quebec and Madawaska/Victoria counties in NB; as such, almost all french residents of northwestern NB are Quebecois, as are those residing in Maine; VERY FEW people represent the well-known deported Acadians. I find it disturbing how the Acadians have profited from their ancestors' struggle while nearly 1 million Quebecois left Quebec (for various reasons) and this is never discussed. So the Chiac debate is more complicated than people think only some Francophone NBers actually speak chiac which many Brayon speakers find to be an offensive "dialect". (I am originally from the Edmundston/Bas St. Laurent region and can speak through experience and referencing myself along with family and friends and many others, such as you have, that everyone I know finds Chiac to be offensive and incorrect.) Brayon is also a local dialect, very similar to Quebecois dialects;however brayon speakers are not proselytizing it as a new language that everyone must acknowledge. Brayon speakers understand and can speak proper french but brayon is for the brayon people and their regions; they know the difference. In today's day and age, with the spread of the english language around the world (every year languages vanish - this is NOT progress, as human diversity is good. It represents skill rather than reliance and alientation - I would argue that the ability for every person to develop countless skills is a large part of what makes us human and represents freedom, which is necessary for humanity to flourish); thus it is essential that we fight to save languages. As such, I would argue that french is being encroached upon among the Acadians of NB. As a Quebecois yourself, you should be aware of la survivance that was so essential to saving our French language and ways of life over the past 400 years or so. Linguicide is not a new concept - it runs deep in history throughout all corners of the world. So no, I am not a proponent of Chiac and I think people need to think about this deeper. Are we accepting the dawn of a "new language" or are we lowering our standards and deskilling our youth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.139.0.56 (talk) 17:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Are we trying to document/explain Chiac or do you guys just want establish a hierarchy so that you can look down upon someone else's dialect? Rather than arbitrarily proclaiming one language superior to another, let's document more objective facets of Chiac. On my dad's side, my ancestors were from Acadia, exiled from Grand Pre, yet I speak very little French simply because the older generation viewed it as "the mark of the ignorant" when I was a child. Please do not justify that kind of bigotry in how you define a language. Either the French page should be changed to "bad latin" or avoid referring to Chiac that way. Thanks. I never used wiki before, but if it's kosher, please let's change that sentence! Slowmeaux (talk) 07:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slowmeaux (talk • contribs) 07:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I was a bit vulgar in my response. I apologize If I have offended anyone; However, I too grew up with 4 french lines my father was french to the core - but never spoke to my sister and I in french. So do not assume I am different from you, but chiac is not a new language and I stick by the argument that chiac is the lazy rendition of french - or english, depending on how you look at it. I am trying to recover my french, and I find it offensive that people who can are abusing the language as such. If you cannot speak fluent french, admit it, but do not proclaim you have invented a new language, local dialect perhaps, but not a new language. I also stick by that it represents the deskilling of youth and the lowering of standards; in a world that is becoming increasingly english speaking - especially in NA. If you were too look at the history of the maritimes (new england included) you would see that policies were put in place to stop acadian (and other french groups) children from speaking their mother tongue, this represents linguicide and chiac is a product of that. So I do wish to "refer to chiac that way". Language is a big part of what makes a people and in many ways dictates unique ways of life, we should correct our youth when speaking. If an entirely NEW language emerges on the face of the earth, I will embrace that as a feat of human ingenuity; however I do not see that happening here. On that note, there is a huge difference between "chiac" and acadian french. But if you are not careful, then all acadian youth may start speaking just chiac (AKA influence of 'Acadieman' - it should be called "chiacman", in respect to acadian people who do not speak chiac). I do not have a problem with the Acadian dialect, which is based mostly on the unique pronounciation of french, but I do not accept chiac. As a expounder of human rights with regards to language, as you have demonstrated, why do you? Chiac speakers will go to any length to avoid admitting they cannot speak french, even so far as proclaiming they have invented an entirely new language. What about Acadian children who's language is being taken from their mouths because according to you, we must be fair? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.139.0.55 (talk) 14:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. The word bad should still be taken out and we should say something about Chiac representing the death of the Acadian language not the creation of a new one, if that is what you mean and we can source that. As a cultural aside, what made it tough in Louisiana was that you couldn't teach the youth Parisian French because then their Grandparents couldn't understand them. Well, that and before they allowed it back on Campus, teachers used to whip children with a ruler for speaking French, while all the "real Americans" laughed, You can't teach Parisian French to an Acadian kid who just wants to be able to understand the older generation. Again, I'm not familiar with the Acadian culture in Canada or whether the difference is as severe as it is here. Take Acadian nautical terms, some colloquialisms, and throw in a glissement de sens and you have Cajun French (i.e. une chaisse de secarguer means lazy boy chair). Slowmeaux (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Lastly, what did you mean about Acadians profitting from the deportation? And "VERY FEW"? Not a good idea to say. We still exist, in large numbers. And we are proud of that.Slowmeaux (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

When I say, Very few, I am referring to the actual deported acadians years ago, not those today - of course there are something like 500,000 - 1 million acadians that exist today, however, originally the number was, although significant, not large. Many public entertainment shows are put on throughout North America sensationalizing the deportation that rake in large profits. Although deportation was largely an acadian experience in french Canada, acadian struggles were not, and are not, restricted to the Acadian Deportation before or after confederation. It alludes to a much larger issue, that of settler colonization and assimilation (linguicide). For years, the Canadian government stemmed from a protestant anglophone system that was counter to ALL French Canadians and First Nations, not just Acadians. What you mentioned about Louisiana was not uncommon, most of the nearly 1 million Quebecois that fled their homeland due to incredible poverty and ill support, being treated as second class citizens, by a government not designed for them; many arrived in Maine, and represent the large French minority there; these Franco Americans (mix of Acadian and mostly Quebecois) were also beaten, and policies set in place to eliminate french language use in Maine. In New Brunswick, where there is a large Acadian minority, chiac is not the only dialect. Chiac stemmed from the shediac/moncton area and is now spreading. However, true acadian french is not Chiac. If one visits the Acadian peninsula, they will see that this is the case, and that older Acadians were not all chiac, but a very small portion in the south. When Acadian politicians fought in the NB legislature, for their right to speak mother tongue - they fought for francophone rights, not chiac. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.79.84 (talk) 01:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

References

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus is to move the article, request deletion of redirect ~~ GB fan ~~ 10:52, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

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Chiac language → Chiac — Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Structure, there is nothing to disambiguate "Chiac" from, as is the case with Hindi, Esperanto and Inuktitut. Yvesnimmo (talk) 05:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support. Case is well made above by the proposer, I can't really add anything nor do I think I need to. Andrewa (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Ditto. — AjaxSmack 23:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Example sentences section out of hand

The example sentences section has gotten out of hand. It's up to 38 examples, almost none of them sourced, and growing. There might be a lot of WP:OR in here. There should be only enough to give a sense of this language variety, possibly enough to highlight each of several points that one might make about it. At this point I'm not sure that the selection is making any point other than "Look, they mix English and French together", and it doesn't take 38 examples to illustrate that. Largoplazo (talk) 01:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

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