Talk:Saint Sebastian

Roots for the name

I was reading "In Xanadu" by William Dalrymple and I found this:

According to Yule almost nothing is known about the historical St Blaise, except that he was the bishop of Sebaste (Roman Sivas) and that he was martyred during the persecutions of Diocletian.

In this section Dalrymple is describing some the history of Sivas - a town in Turkey about 250 kilometers west of the Euphrates.

Maybe St Bliase was St Sebastian, but that's another story. Would it be worth speculating that someone from Sebaste is a Sebastian? Sebaste was a roman town, Sebastian was a roman saint - is it worth putting 2 and 2 together?

• I'm not sure it is. I'll admit that it sounds intriguing, but at this point, unless you can produce some published sources that show that this theory holds some currency, it's just speculation. It'd make a great topic of conversation over beer and a bag of crisps, but I'm not sure it should go into an encyclopedia. One rule that forbids this sort of thing, I think, is Wikipedia's prohibition against original research. While I don't think you're saying that this is research, my understanding is that this is something you yourself have noticed rather than something you read in a published work. Am I right about this, or have I misunderstood you? —CKA3KA (Skazka) 00:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• There seems no way to insert into the taxobox that this Saint Sebastian is by Il Sodoma (Pitti Palace). You'd think it was just a wallet-card or something. Sebastianus is not a Roman cognomen: the derivation "from Sebaste" is not "original" at all, it's inescapable. What else might 'Sebastianus", the Greek analogue of "Augusta" in numerous town names, mean? Which Sebaste: now, that would be original research! --Wetman 20:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Gay iconism

This is on the to-do list and has actually been added numerous times (I personally have added it twice), but it never seems to last very long. It seems that some people are so horrified that St. Sebastian is identified with homosexuality that they can't bear the mention of it. Frankly, I don't care if the man was gay or not or whether there is any valid reason for anyone to associate him with homosexual behavior or not. But, in fact, that association has come to be and for the sake of completeness it should be mentioned. Censorship in this sense has no place here--66.253.174.65 09:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

My primary objection to this whole entry is that it presumes St. Sebastian was a historical person. There is NO evidence of that. He is a mythic religious character. This problem is rife throughout Wikipedia. Entries state religious dogma that is either not supported by history or contradicted by history as fact without a clear statement that this is all according to religious stories.

Secondly, St. Sebastian is relevant and well-known today OVERWHELMINGLY because of his depiction since at least the 1600s as a beautiful, almost naked, bound, sacrificial young man. This is echoed throughout current art and advertising. There as literally hundreds of formerly famous saints in the Catholic Hagiographa that no one today recognizes. There should be an art and popular culture section AT THE TOP that discusses and recognizes this. As a gay man, St. Sebastian is well-known homoerotic image but I would not say a "gay icon." In Derek Jarman's film he is portrayed as a forbidden object of desire who is killed because he will not be gay for his commander, so he is really depicted as an anti-gay icon. The Guardian article already cited provides sourcing for most of this. But, however, Wiki has a PROBLEM with religion. Every article that is basically a recitation of faith should somehow be labeled as such or there should be a historicity section high up that discusses whether the figure is an actual historically attested personage. Sjlebl (talk) 20:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• it doesnt belong without a reference. 216.127.138.184 18:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I have put it in the "popular culture" section, with a reference. Springnuts 21:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing homoererotic. You see a martyr being killed as erotic shows how moralless you are 92.51.252.58 (talk) 01:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

It does not deserve an LGBT banner. I am offended that a Saint deserves such slander! Eedo Bee 12:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Slander? That's your POV, and has no place in a Wikipedia article. A source has been provided identifying St. Sebastian as a gay icon. The LGBT banner is there to help identify and improve articles that are interesting to the LGBT wikiproject for several reasons. Just like any other wikiproject banner. What is so offensive about that? Raystorm 13:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Documenting the fact that Sebastian is a gay icon has nothing to do with saying that he was gay. The fact is that Sebastian is a gay icon. What I want to know is why? There doesn't seem to be anything in his story to suggest he was gay. Is it more to do with the homoerotic image of a naked man pierced with arrows? For these two reasons alone ie 1) That he is a gay icon and that this is a important cultural phenomemon and 2) Its a mystery as to WHY should justify including a section on this subject. ThePeg 11:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

A possible, partial answer from art historian Richard E. Spear's The Divine Guido: Religion, Sex, Money, and Art in the World of Guido Reni, page 60. "Ardent response to the sight of bound Sebastian penetrated by arrows has a long and varied history, if for no other reason than the spectacle of a passive male nude body was relatively uncommon to art...particularly by the measure of the ubiquitous female nude displayed as erotic object." The connection definitely deserves mention, as Sebastian has clearly been linked with homosexuality, regardless of whether the man himself was gay or some people object to this development. The "hijacking" of saints by people outside the Church is not new, see St Expedite, St Joan of Arc, St Arnulf/Arnold, St Barbara (in regard to her connection to Santaria), etc. --Izau 16:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Why are we grasping at straws as to why he's a gay icon? Is there literature somewhere that states that it is because the arrows are reminiscent of S&M, or because he's draw as a sexy young man, or (previous) that the piercing arrows are phallic? How about this: stick to facts, or at least proper references. (Note that this is not detracting St. Sebastian as a gay icon; merely the wild guessing as to why.) 72.240.176.181 (talk) 15:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any morals? The image of have naked is not "homoerotic" it's not even erotic and its absolutely vile to try and describe a religious painting of a Saint who belongs to a church valuing purity and chasity. 92.51.252.58 (talk) 00:58, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

There needs to be more elaboration of how St. Sebastian's life story can be interpreted to make him a gay icon. This is simply asserted in the article, albeit with several examples of others asserting this. However, this is doesn't actually answer the question. As this section of the article reads right now, it's basically, "St. Sebastian is a gay icon. People have decided he's a gay icon. He's been depicted in art as a nude young man." There's a lot of nude young men in classical art, yet the vast majority of them are not automatically gay icons. 67.180.193.93 (talk) 10:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

He is a [gay icon]. we don't get to pic what the lgbt population views him as. let's keep wiki NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.241.86.117 (talk) 05:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

But we need to know why, surely. I cam here looking for info, and found only what i already knew. As a non-catholic, i expect an encylopedia to know more than me about a saint - in this case, why is he a gay icon. The gy icon article just talks about the paintings (again). Is that the only reason? That's pretty shallow!YobMod 13:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

His status as a gay icon goes back to at least the 1800s, and very likely prior to that. It's one of those things where you may really only be able to speculate as to the origins. As for the S&M comments, most S&M practitioners are straight -- the idea of it as a "gay thing" is an 80s stereotype. The nudity doesn't make him as such either. For me, I have always thought it had to do with the complete story of his life. He's great as an aspirational figure. He stood up for what he believed in and did not back down in the face of extreme persecution. That has nothing to do with being gay, but it likely serves the basis for his status as a gay icon. 98.225.230.65 (talk) 03:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

A line in the current article helps explain: "...the 'heroism born of weakness', which characterizes poise amidst agonizing torment and plain acceptance of one's fate as, beyond mere patience and passivity, a stylized achievement and artistic triumph." This concept may have less resonance today but once would have been readily understood by those who related. Gay icons from before widespread gay lib are more than a little abstruse and hard to scrutinize because they communicated on a level that was invariably unspoken. Usually they came simply from the sense that one was looking at one's own life -- this is the reasoning usually provided for the early and mid 20th century gay iconography of tragic actresses. I can't offer any sources sadly, but I can offer something more than conjecture, in that I have read about the connection before in an academic text. It mentioned the symbolic significance of his body being penetrated by arrows and surviving, before an incredulous world (which kills him anyway). If I come across it again I'll offer it here as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.50.36 (talk) 04:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello. It is a bit odd how gay icon is mentioned in the other links. It lead me to wonder why and it doesn't mention it in the article anywhere, I had to come to this talk page to find out the answer. Should have a brief description in the article, or, if it is not notable enough, don't have the gay icon link at the bottom. I think it's not notable enough but others may disagree, my main point is as it is it makes the article confusing and wiki articles should not do that. Popish Plot (talk) 16:34, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Please disregard this^ I missed mention of it in the arts and literature section. Popish Plot (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no substance to the claim that Saint Sebastian is associated with gay culture outside of a low quality entertainment article referring to the fact that he is portrayed as shirtless and athletic. In fact I think the whole section should be removed as it is not in any way relevant even if true. Since when do we allow information to be controlled by low quality "clickbait" magazines just to fit the narrative of a certain group of people? If that is the standard then we might as well put in a section on President Trump that he enjoys paying women of the night to do unspeakable things to him or a section for President Obama that he actually was born with white skin. Richardthefirst1 (talk) 17:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Contrary to these misleading claims by Richardthefirst1, the section in its current form is well-supported by sources, rather than relying on "low quality 'clickbait' magazines". As for the strange musings about US presidents, see WP:OTHER.

(noting this here because in the last two days, several edits from Brazil-based IPs tried to blanket-delete this section, citing the above note among other spurious arguments)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 21:43, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, this is a common form of vandalism here, presumably from outraged Catholics. Note that this section began in 2006. Removal of this stuff should be firmly reverted. Johnbod (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

I saw some of this in recent changes. If removal of LGBT+ references is a persistent problem (and it does seem to account for a fair percentage of edits), could pending changes protection be warranted? TornadoLGS (talk) 04:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

why does it say LGTBQ+ on this thing?,like what? what does this saint have to do with the lgtbq im cunfused— Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.99.69 (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's really good for queer people to have a patron saint who pray for them Steaven24 (talk) 16:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Sebastiane

I don't have time to add it right now, but Sebastiane should probably be mentioned in this aritcle. CaveatLector^Talk 09:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

How is the name pronounced?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.139.183.226 (talk • contribs) 22:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

As it's spelled.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.29.158 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Priorities

Why does Sebastian direct here, shouldn't it direct to the disambiguation. This might be the most popular of the Sebastian articles but it isn't technically a Sebastian article, people looking in on Sebastian shouldn't have to go through Saint Sebastian, I believe with a certain amount of certainity that most people looking for the Saint specifically will know enough to put Saint in front. People looking for Sebastian should not have to go through Christian mythology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Bugger off, if you want to look for a Sebastian, then type the whole name. Energyfreezer (talk) 16:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There should probably be a disambiguation page for all of the things named after the saint, Saint Sebastian (disambiguation). Such a list will presumably be large. Drutt (talk) 03:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Sebatian Wood Sculpture

I have a photo of a wood sculpture of St. Sebatian by Virgil Cantini, and I am not sure where it could go in this article. Maybe someone else can find a place for it: Image:CantiniStSebastianHillmanLibrary.jpg.--Shizzy9989 (talk) 16:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have added your image to the article, it is not the best job layout-wise but hopefully someone can improve that. Thank you. --ChaChaFut (talk) 03:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Does anybody know...

does anybody know what food they eat at the feast of San Sebastian de Yumbel in Chile? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.239.184 (talk) 14:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Parking Trivia

Parking the trivia section here as it has been tagged since December 2007. Please do not move back without citations showing notability of the reference and working it into encyclopedic context. Toddst1 (talk) 11:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Saint Sebastian in popular culture

Versions of the iconic image of Sebastian impaled with arrows appear in:

• Claude Debussy wrote the incidental music for Gabriele d'Annunzio's mystery play Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien, inspired by the story of the saint
• Saint Sebastian is considered the unofficial Patron Saint of LGBT people.
• Philip Glass includes a short musical piece titled "Saint Sebastian" in his score for the film Mishima.
• In the film Blown Away, the statue of St Sebastian symbolically appears throughout the film.
• In the Canadian film Lilies, a rehearsal for a church's re-enactment of the scene plays a prominent role in the storyline and iconography.
• Followers of Saint Sebastian figure prominently in Loren D. Estleman's "Amos Walker" novel, "Nicotine Kiss". In the private eye novel, they meet at "The Church of the Freshwater Sea".
• The novel "Hotel Transylvania", by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, features a villain named Saint Sebastien.
• The rock band Instar wrote a song titled "Saint Sebastian" describing a child's reaction to a painting of the saint.
• In the Val Lewton RKO film I Walked with a Zombie a figurehead of St. Sebastian is featured in the garden of the Hollands' residence, and is the name of the fictional island that the movie takes place on. The same island also features in Lewton's The Ghost Ship, and the RKO Carney and Brown film Zombies on Broadway
• Several films have been made about the life of Sebastian, mostly focusing on his iconic execution. See Bavo Defurne's 1996 short film, Saint
• The television show Millennium has an episode entitled "The Hand of St. Sebastian" (2nd season).
• St. Sebastian's way of death was also used in La Mujer de Judas as the killer kills Ernesto the same way.
• Saint Sebastian is mentioned in the poem The Hat Lady by Linda Pastan.
• In the 1976 film Carrie, the title character has a statue of Saint Sebastian in her cupboard as she prays, not a statue of Jesus as commonly assumed. Carrie's mother dies in a way that is similar in look to the statue.
• In 1984 by George Orwell, Winston Smith imagines killing the dark-haired woman during the Two Minutes Hate "like Saint Sebastian".
• St. Sebastian church is the church in Godfather 3
• In the 16th Season of The Simpsons, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Guest Star, Bart Simpson is sent to a Catholic boarding school where a priest gives him a comic book depicting the life of Saint Sebastian.
• St. Sebastian appears in several shots in R.E.M.'s music video "Losing my Religion."
• In the HBO production of Wit (film) a painting of Saint Sebastien's execution is used in two settings.

Notability is not a criterion for content. It refers to the inclusion or exclusion of an article because of lack of significant independent coverage of the topic in reliable sources. patsw (talk) 23:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The city's dog? Huh?

In the article as of this writing occurs this passage: "Saint Sebastian is officially the Patron saint of the city of [Chepén], La Libertad, in the north of Peru. On January 20 is the major festivities and celebrations of the citys dog." Not only is this unsourced it seems patently nonsensical. A celebration of the city's dog? Smells Like Teen Whackypedia. 68.229.185.85 (talk) 11:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I've removed this. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

In a similar vein, "He was a bucket"??? Andrew (talk) 21:59, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Rvted - vandalism from 3 days ago, not fully reverted. 22:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Thomas Mann

Not sure if this is of any importance, but Thomas Mann included references to Saint Sebastian as a sort of icon of writers, for lack of a better way to put it, in "Death in Venice". 76.30.76.4 (talk) 03:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• Somebody has now incorporated this into the article. GeorgeTSLC (talk) 16:51, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Old vandalism

Many of the vandals here have not been properly reverted - this one and this one had been uncorrected here for nearly a year. Johnbod (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Left vein?

"For reasons unknown, the left vein of Sebastian is always exposed." I've marked that with a "What?" and want to complain here that neither in anatomy nor in popular use does "left vein" have a meaning w/o further context. The sentence also isn't clear about whether it refers to Dali or to all Sebastian iconography. Nor, as I've also marked, does it have a cited source. GeorgeTSLC (talk) 16:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Added by anon in March 2007. See here. William Avery (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Do athletes really regularly carry his relics?

Icons I could understand, but I think the word relic is being misued in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.3.64.1 (talk) 01:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

No, of course not, that is absurd. I will take that out. This article, like many others about saints, needs a lot of work, it does not clearly distinguish between what historical facts, if any, can be verified and what is "tradition" or legend. That sentence should not be in the lead, the lead is supposed to summarise the rest of the article, which does not talk about veneration of Sebastian by soldiers and athletes.Smeat75 (talk) 02:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Did you try googling it? It is not absurd. Provided references for you. Also, try and get some consensus before you decide what is and what isn't absurd. Okay, sMeat?Greengrounds (talk) 02:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you see the name of this section header Greengrounds? it says "do athletes really regularly carry his relics"? Do you know what "relics" are? The references you have supplied refer to Sebastian as the patron saint of sports, not that athletes regularly carry a bit of his anklebone or something into the arena with them. And please see WP:LEAD,"The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article", the lead should not talk about athletes carrying bones or bodily parts of a thousand year plus old saint into sports events with them unless that is discussed in the body of the article.Smeat75 (talk) 02:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

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Patron of Race Car Drivers?

Source or reasoning for such? Falls under athlete category but why specifically these drivers? 2600:387:C:2C12:0:0:0:1 (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2022 (UTC)